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The big silver van - a 2021 AWD build from the Bay Area

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200K views 919 replies 80 participants last post by  gregoryx  
#1 ·
Hi!

Yesterday I took delivery of a new 2021 High Roof extended length AWD cargo van, after waiting patiently since placing my order in mid December last year. All in all it seems like I got lucky and everything went according to the expected schedule, and so far it seems like the vehicle works, nothing is missing, broken or unfinished. I will probably learn that this is not the case over the next few weeks based on the stories I have been reading here, but for now I am keeping my fingers crossed that Ford got it right with this one.
It has the ecoboost engine, dual alternators (bleh, unclear if this was a wise decision), as well as all safety-related options (BLIS, front/rear cameras, parking sensors, etc...).

I'm going to be fairly busy over the next couple of weeks so unfortunately won't get to build too much, but I am going to use this thread to post updates for whoever might be interested. The major build components I am planning on are (off the top of my head, I am probably forgetting all sorts of stuff):
  • A queen size bed
  • Narrow slider windows on the rear, above the bed
  • An awning-style window on the sliding door
  • 20 gal over-the-wheel well fresh water tank
  • Under-mounted gray water tank
  • Some form of hot water heater. Currently leaning towards Isotemp mounted under the van. I got the aux heater prep package so I am hoping hooking that up would be easy.
  • An air heater - still on the fence about which one. Espar is nice because I like not having multiple types of fuel, but it seems unreliable. Cheap Chinese diesel heaters are essentially disposable and generally work okay (I used one in my previous Sprinter build and had no issues with it) but it would require a Diesel tank. A propane heater seems like the most pleasant to use (no maintenance and the quietest) but that would require dealing with Propane which I am not excited about. If I do go that route then I will also use it for hot water, I suppose...
  • ~13kWh of LiFePo4. I have ordered 16x272AH cells and will be building a 24v battery pack using those.
  • CuriseNComfort air-conditioner. An annoyingly expensive component, but seems like people who have them like them and the installation does not require dealing with flexible refrigerant lines or giving up roof space
  • A microwave, induction cook and electric kettle
  • An 8020 roof rack with 600-900W of solar
  • The usual Maxxair 7500 fan
  • A 4.2 cu ft (I think?) Vitrifrigo fridge.
  • For insulation I am going to do what I did in the Sprinter - RMax 1" polyiso panels + Thinsulate SM600L in the walls and ceiling, and the pink foam panels under the floor.
  • A shower with a bathroom inside it. I went back and forth on this (and will probably continue to do so until I have to make a decision) but I like the appeal of not having to do any work to take a shower.
  • Probably a bunch of other stuff I am forgetting...

My intended usage for this thing is mostly few day trips, festivals, and the occasional longer road-trip. I tend to prefer hot weather so will probably not spend too much time around freezing temperatures.

Here's the new toy:
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This is the current layout plan, still very much a work in progress:
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I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to contribute to this forum. It has been in invaluable source of information and inspiration, and I am grateful that it exists.

Cheers!
 
#5 ·
It might not be clear from the rendering, but half of the bed rests on two benches, and there will be a Lagun table mounted between them. Here is a rendering with the bed folded in, exposing the benches:
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Additionally, I will be installing a swivel on the passenger seat with an option to mount a Lagun table in that area as well.

The reason I went with this type of bed is because I am allergic to making the bed and dealing with sheets. I am planning on using this mattress which I used in my previous build and liked. By pushing it backwards it folds in, with the sheet in place (and the blankets/pillows can rest on top, or to the side of it).

Open to other suggestions if anyone has them!
 
#8 ·
And some photos of the empty inside:
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That box is the heavy duty scuff plate - apparently that is how it comes, which I actually think is good for me since I would've had to remove it anyway for the floor installation. I haven't opened the box yet but I hope that this would be useful to trim the edges of the floor.

I think the first task I would be starting with is applying some Noico sound deadening material. I recall that made quite the difference in the Sprinter and made the ride more pleasant. I am thinking of then cutting the Thinsulate in big chunks (one for each side wall, one for the ceiling) and trying to temporarily hold it with some magnets. That should make the van more pleasant to work in while I proceed to continue planning, verifying measurements, figuring out what options I have for mounting things under the van, sizing the roof rack, and a million other tasks that involve staring at the empty box and thinking about what to do, how to do it and what is the correct order.
 
#16 ·
And some photos of the empty inside:
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That box is the heavy duty scuff plate - apparently that is how it comes, which I actually think is good for me since I would've had to remove it anyway for the floor installation.
I spent the last several months thinking that the scuff played was underneath the van to prevent damage if you're driving on rough terrain... Is it simply an indoor plate for walking on top of? Does anybody have a good picture of that?

Your van looks awesome and I'm definitely envious! Wishing I had ordered black rims. It's a really stylish look.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the answer.

I have too much on my plate, I am not in rush.
I have been looking at a few companies in Shenzhen City, like Basen Technology and Mushang Electronics. These companies have been around for more than 5 years which translates to 20 years in American companies. Alternatively, I will just order a pair of 206 AH SOK. but DIY is always my passion.

As for BMS, I was looking at Will Prowse's type BMS. He tends to be on the cheap side. 🙃
 
#12 ·
Thanks for the answer.

I have too much on my plate, I am not in rush.
I have been looking at a few companies in Shenzhen City, like Basen Technology and Mushang Electronics. These companies have been around for more than 5 years which translates to 20 years in American companies. Alternatively, I will just order a pair of 206 AH SOK. but DIY is always my passion.

As for BMS, I was looking at Will Prowse's type BMS. He tends to be on the cheap side. 🙃
Lots of good information on his forum (DIY LiFePO4 Battery Banks). I believe my cells are also coming from Basen or some similar supplier - I went with some group purchase that someone on that forum is organizing. Unfortunately it has moving very slowly so unclear when will anything ship. I think I'll give it a few more weeks and if it hasn't been shipped by then I will order directly from one of the suppliers.
 
#13 ·
  • Some form of hot water heater. Currently leaning towards Isotemp mounted under the van. I got the aux heater prep package so I am hoping hooking that up would be easy.
  • An air heater - still on the fence about which one. Espar is nice because I like not having multiple types of fuel, but it seems unreliable. Cheap Chinese diesel heaters are essentially disposable and generally work okay (I used one in my previous Sprinter build and had no issues with it) but it would require a Diesel tank. A propane heater seems like the most pleasant to use (no maintenance and the quietest) but that would require dealing with Propane which I am not excited about. If I do go that route then I will also use it for hot water, I suppose...
I'm interested in your under-van isotemp install as I have roughly the same plan. I'm a little nervous about getting one of these units to fit under there, but that would be most ideal. I'm planning to take it a step further and skip the air heater and use a hydronic coil instead (basically like the rixen system). I have a gasoline powered coolant heater as well so it'll be complex unfortunately...
I also rolled my own battery. Bought from Dongguan Lighting New Energy on Alibaba and it went great. I got 8 EVE 280Ah cells. Fedex dropped them off on 3/23 and I placed the alibaba order on 1/28 so it took just under two months for the boat ride, customs, last mile, etc. I did a capacity test and they all exceeded 280 Ah by a decent margin (I shut the test down at about 288-290 Ah and the cells were still at about 3v). I went with the overkill solar BMS.

Congrats! She's a beauty!
 
#14 ·
I've been debating trying to do a Rixen-like system or just go with Rixen. There is a price jump between Isotemp + Espar/Webasto air heater to full-on Rixen but it is in the order of ~$2k I think. Not unreasonable for a well-engineered system that people seem to like.

Nice to hear you had a good experience with Dongguan Lighting New Energy. I've seen the name mentioned on diysolarforum. What made you pick them over the others?
 
#23 ·
@eranrund Sweet looking van! I really like the layout. If I went with the EL I would definitely go with the extending bed over dinette approach you have taken. If you have not already seen it, Humble Road has a video where he goes over some of the dinette layout issues and considerations that you might find helpful. My plan is to have the bed extend over my galley countertops. The bed will only be as long as needed to fit our bikes as to maximize day use space. The trifold mattress you posted looks promising. Did you sleep N-S, that is perpendicular to the folds, in your last van? If so I would assume that you did not find the seam under your torso uncomfortable? I am wrestling with a lot of the same choices you have. I don't want to hijack your thread any further, so I will DM you about a few things. I get the desire for a permanent shower but I will throw out what I am planning for a shower/toilet/space behind the drives seat.

I keep wondering if there is a way to combine the functions of the shower and sink together to save space.
I have a 148" non EL and with a similar extending N-S rear be planned, so no dinette in day mode, the bed will extend over the galley countertop in sleep mode. Therefore I have installed swivels on both seats (2 travelling in the van) as our only seating. There will be about 2' of clearance between the drivers seat and the galley for legroom. To better utilize that space the toilet will slide out from the side of the galley into that space. I am going to try and fit the sink in the counter above the toilet. I may also try to raise the slide for the toilet a few inches off of the floor so that a shower pan can fit below it. Then that area could also be used as a shower. As an aside, I am also going to see if a three panel cab partition that would fold against the wall in that area is possible within the space constraint (and my skillset :rolleyes:)
 
#25 ·
I have no idea. I randomly ordered some Neodymium magnets off Amazon that I thought were reasonably sized but I believe they are too small. Will need to try and find bigger ones. I'm not 100% sure this is a practical solution because of the material thickness but maybe there is a reasonably sized magnet that is not too scary or impossible to get off if it attaches directly to the metal but is still strong enough to clamp the Thinsulate.

@eranrund Sweet looking van! I really like the layout. If I went with the EL I would definitely go with the extending bed over dinette approach you have taken. If you have not already seen it, Humble Road has a video where he goes over some of the dinette layout issues and considerations that you might find helpful. My plan is to have the bed extend over my galley countertops. The bed will only be as long as needed to fit our bikes as to maximize day use space. The trifold mattress you posted looks promising. Did you sleep N-S, that is perpendicular to the folds, in your last van? If so I would assume that you did not find the seam under your torso uncomfortable? I am wrestling with a lot of the same choices you have. I don't want to hijack your thread any further, so I will DM you about a few things. I get the desire for a permanent shower but I will throw out what I am planning for a shower/toilet/space behind the drives seat.
Thank you! I will look for the Humble Road video. I have a watched a bunch of his videos and gotten a lot of value out of them. I slept N-S (or rear -> forward), with the mattress seams going side-to-side in the previous build and that is the plan for this one as well. The way the mattress is constructed results in having one seam facing up and one seam facing down. You only sink into the one that is facing down, so I made sure to orient the mattress such that this seam is towards my legs. It has not been a problem at all. Feel free to DM and good luck with your build!

I have a 148" non EL and with a similar extending N-S rear be planned, so no dinette in day mode, the bed will extend over the galley countertop in sleep mode. Therefore I have installed swivels on both seats (2 travelling in the van) as our only seating. There will be about 2' of clearance between the drivers seat and the galley for legroom. To better utilize that space the toilet will slide out from the side of the galley into that space. I am going to try and fit the sink in the counter above the toilet. I may also try to raise the slide for the toilet a few inches off of the floor so that a shower pan can fit below it. Then that area could also be used as a shower. As an aside, I am also going to see if a three panel cab partition that would fold against the wall in that area is possible within the space constraint (and my skillset :rolleyes:)
That sounds like a good layout - I have seen similar ones and they seem to work well. I believe I would've went with something similar if I didn't have the extra length of the EL model. Part of my thinking around the full-sized shower is that I am hoping it would make it easier for me to add some kind of sliding+folding partition. Since the shower will permanently block about a third of the width, I will only need to figure out a way to have something that can slide and extend for the remaining two thirds. I'd like a partition to hopefully provide insulation from the front cabin and make running the AC a tiny bit more practical. Another advantage of it is I am going to try and over-engineer the driver-seat facing wall such that ideally in case of a bad accident it would prevent stuff flying towards the front from hitting me.

For people wanting a shower without giving it the dedicated space I have seen an interesting design recently, where a custom made pan was recessed into the floor and a curtain such as Accessories was used. It's more work to use it but that is always going to be the tradeoff.
 
#30 ·
A week into owning the van and already a few things not going the way I want them to. While installing more Noico I discovered that Ford messed up the adhesive job that glues the sheet metal panels into the inner support frames - see dedicate thread here: Adhesive between body panels (outer sheet metal shell)...
If anyone has recommendations for a good dealership to take the van to in the Bay Area that would be much appreciated. I hope that they will have a reasonable solution for this issue and not say it is not a problem or blame it on my sticking the Noico on the panels...

Additionally, the two first big projects I was hoping to start with are slowed down by some annoying issues: My van has the roof shark fin antenna that is going to get in the way of the roof rack and solar panels (or vice versa if I put the panels above it). The BEMM mentions a kit to relocate it but Google does not seem to believe the thing exists. Some more details are posted here 2020 Low Roof Passenger Shark Fin Delete?

I am unable to start on the floor until I decide where to place my heater, since I want to mount it straight to the sheet metal. For that I need to decide which heater to go with and where to get it from. I am strongly leaning against Propane and that leaves me with a few suboptimal options to choose from:
  1. Espar B4L. Seems like the only reputable place to order it from (unless someone is aware of other places) is esparparts.com. $1900... also sadly only comes at a 4kW version which is an overkill for a van.
  2. Webasto - Leaning against this due to lack of automatic altitude adjustment. I believe cheaper than the Espar.
  3. A Chinese Diesel heater - About a 1/10th of the cost of Espar. Would require figuring out a location for a Diesel tank so definitely a less elegant solution, but apparently they now come with a controller that has altitude adjustment. Additionally, they come in a 24v version which annoyingly is not an option for the Espar gasoline version.
Decisions decisions....
 
#43 ·
A week into owning the van and already a few things not going the way I want them to. While installing more Noico I discovered that Ford messed up the adhesive job that glues the sheet metal panels into the inner support frames - see dedicate thread here: Adhesive between body panels (outer sheet metal shell)...
If anyone has recommendations for a good dealership to take the van to in the Bay Area that would be much appreciated. I hope that they will have a reasonable solution for this issue and not say it is not a problem or blame it on my sticking the Noico on the panels...

Additionally, the two first big projects I was hoping to start with are slowed down by some annoying issues: My van has the roof shark fin antenna that is going to get in the way of the roof rack and solar panels (or vice versa if I put the panels above it). The BEMM mentions a kit to relocate it but Google does not seem to believe the thing exists. Some more details are posted here 2020 Low Roof Passenger Shark Fin Delete?

I am unable to start on the floor until I decide where to place my heater, since I want to mount it straight to the sheet metal. For that I need to decide which heater to go with and where to get it from. I am strongly leaning against Propane and that leaves me with a few suboptimal options to choose from:
  1. Espar B4L. Seems like the only reputable place to order it from (unless someone is aware of other places) is esparparts.com. $1900... also sadly only comes at a 4kW version which is an overkill for a van.
  2. Webasto - Leaning against this due to lack of automatic altitude adjustment. I believe cheaper than the Espar.
  3. A Chinese Diesel heater - About a 1/10th of the cost of Espar. Would require figuring out a location for a Diesel tank so definitely a less elegant solution, but apparently they now come with a controller that has altitude adjustment. Additionally, they come in a 24v version which annoyingly is not an option for the Espar gasoline version.
Decisions decisions....
Wow, the price on the Espar B4L has really gone up!! I got the complete kit for $1,400 a year ago, it came with everything for the install and the controller!!
I've had no problems with it and I used it around 80 times at Mt Rose and the parking lot is at 8200 feet. About 99% of the times it started on the first try but a few time it did take a few tries.
 
#31 ·
Not a lot has changed, but there is more Noico applied and more planning took place. The projects I am currently trying to focus on are the roof rack and everything that goes on the roof, and finalizing the layout so I could start building the floor. I still need to get to a dealership and see what they say about the foam adhesive issue, but having thought more about it I am less concerned that is is actually a problem. I mostly want to talk to the dealership to establish a relationship with a service person.

For the roof rack I was debating between Hein's brackets (the v1 ones, that were sold out) and custom making my own. Then the V2 ones came out and I decided I don't need another project and would rather trade money for time, so I ordered those. Tomorrow I am picking up 145" 1515-LS pieces from a local distributor. I definitely want a rack longer than the shippable 94" pieces, and since the distributor is 30 minutes away from my house I figured I would get the long pieces and trim them to fit instead of getting smaller pieces and joining them together. I am still on the fence regarding the solar panels configuration - the two options are 4x200W Rich Solar or 3x365W Rec Alpha panels. Once I have the rails installed I am hoping to install the Maxxair vent (the rails should allow me to create a temporary "roof deck" so that I could more comfortably do the install without worrying about bending the roof thin sheet metal). Once the fan is installed I could make some decisions about which panels to go with. The shark fin antenna is likely going to be an issue so I will need to see what to do about that.

In order to move forward with the floor I need to decide where to place the heater since I would rather mount it straight to the metal floor. For that I need to decide which heater to go with and that is turning out to be a difficult decision. The gasoline Espar is expensive and unreliable (and it sounds like they are coming with a 2kW version at some point that is more suitable for the size of the van, and will likely be cheaper). Are there any reliable places to get it from other than esparparts.com?
I am not going to do propane, but I might add an auxiliary Diesel tank and go with a Chinese diesel heater. The aux diesel tank plumbed into the DEF port that someone here did looks like an overall nice solution to this problem.
Another option is to commit to doing a hydronic heater, and then I don't have to worry about where to mount the heater. Figuring out a place for the air heat exchanger is much easier. Seems like this solution is also not significantly more expensive than the Espar air heater, and has the added benefit of being able to heat up water in an Isotemp heater (which I am hoping to fit under the van).

I also gave some thought to what AC solution to go with, the options being a Chinese one like I did in the Sprinter (which looks like might fit okay under the Transit), or going all out with the CruiseNComfort. The CruiseNComfort condenser will fit nicely under the van, although I will have to deal with routing the refrigerant lines close to the exhaust, since I want to place it on the passenger side of the van.

Here are some not very exciting photos of some Noico. Hopefully the next update would include photos of the roof rack :)

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#33 ·
I believe there are two issues - one is what you said, it's preferable to have the exhaust/combustion air intake completely outside of the van to reduce chances of CO leaks into the living space.
The other issue, I think, is depending on the thickness of your floor, it might be very hard to impossible to tighten the hose clamps that hold the exhaust and air intake pipes in place if they are sitting in the floor and not outside of the van. Does that make sense?
 
#34 · (Edited)
Congratulations, beautiful van and sounds like you’ve got a solid plan! I’m working on my 2021 HR Ext build in between W Oakland and Humanmade Makerspace in the Dogpatch. We should compare notes over 🍻 sometime!

Last weekend was insulation install, measuring out the adapter I’m CNCing for the Maxxair, and starting the Espar hydronic install.

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#36 ·
Congratulations, beautiful van and sounds like you’ve got a solid plan! I’m working on my 2021 HR Ext build in between W Oakland and Humanmade Makerspace in the Dogpatch. We should compare notes over 🍻 sometime!

Last weekend was insulation install, measuring out the adapter I’m CNCing for the Maxxair, and starting the Espar hydronic install.

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Nice! I am going to alternate between working in my driveway in East Oakland on simple stuff (no tools here) and my well-equipped workshop in Bayview. I've been meaning to sign up for Humanmade and take their CNC class/certification thing, that would be a nice superpower to add to my arsenal.

Do you have a link handy on using DEF port for diesel tank inlet? I was thinking to put the diesel tank in the passenger side of the engine bay.

Using a hydronic heater, you still need some auxiliary heater for the prolonged sitting mode???
Check out this thread and this one. Not sure I understand your question about prolonged sitting? The hydronic heater can run indefinitely I believe, as long as it has fuel, unless I am missing something.
 
#44 ·
For the roof rack I was debating between Hein's brackets (the v1 ones, that were sold out) and custom making my own. Then the V2 ones came out and I decided I don't need another project and would rather trade money for time, so I ordered those. Tomorrow I am picking up 145" 1515-LS pieces from a local distributor. I definitely want a rack longer than the shippable 94" pieces, and since the distributor is 30 minutes away from my house I figured I would get the long pieces and trim them to fit instead of getting smaller pieces and joining them together.

Just curious, where are you picking up your 8020 in the Bay Area? Thanks
 
#48 ·
The Espar, on the heat setting will heat the coolant to a defined temp and the heat water heat exchanger has a manual thermostatic valve on it. From ignition to full coolant temp is very short, like 3-5 minutes. So for my setup I will just turn the heater on and have it running when I need hot water.

The ecobee is a separate control and will run a fan on low or high to a defined temp and then turn off. I wanted to get the A/C on the ecobee too but at the moment the Nomadic 3500 won't support external thermostats :(.

I'm using a 12v kalori silencio 2 for the fan but also have an evo compact 1. One is more compact and noisier but both will work for the setup I have.
 
#49 ·
The Espar, on the heat setting will heat the coolant to a defined temp and the heat water heat exchanger has a manual thermostatic valve on it. From ignition to full coolant temp is very short, like 3-5 minutes. So for my setup I will just turn the heater on and have it running when I need hot water.

The ecobee is a separate control and will run a fan on low or high to a defined temp and then turn off. I wanted to get the A/C on the ecobee too but at the moment the Nomadic 3500 won't support external thermostats :(.

I'm using a 12v kalori silencio 2 for the fan but also have an evo compact 1. One is more compact and noisier but both will work for the setup I have.
Thank you! What did you use for an expansion tank?
Does the Espar cycle between on/off or does it alter the fuel pump/water circulation speed? The Espar air heater allows adjusting the heat output, but my understanding is you want to always run on high (especially when in high altitudes) to reduce potential sooting. I'm wondering how that works for the coolant heater.

I've been in the fence regarding a coolant-water plate heat exchanger versus an Isotemp. For showers it doesn't really matter, but for hand washing it seems nice to me to have hot/warm water without having to start the heater, which should be very easy with an Isotemp (or a fully electric heater).
 
#54 ·
Yesterday I installed @Hein's roof rack brackets - it went smoothly. I was lucky that all my holes aligned just enough that I didn't need to enlarge the holes. It was definitely close on some of the holes. I still need to order the 6th rear-most bracket once that is available. I used a plastic chisel to get open the sealing plugs and then cleaned the area with isopropyl alcohol. The rails I used are the longest I could get locally - 145". 8020 do have longer versions (242" I think?) but I couldn't find a local distributer that stocked them and shipping was very expensive. TBD if 145" is going to be sufficient. To ensure that the rack is square I cut two 57" pieces and joined them with the large gusset brackets. This was my first time doing anything with 8020 and while the end result is satisfying, it was a pain to get everything lined up while moving back and forth on two ladders. To cut the 57" pieces I used a horizontal bandsaw. Initially with coolant, and that made a mess - and then without it and the result was still good. I used the black non-stainless steel fasteners I got from TNutz, which is probably not ideal for roof-mounted hardware. I will replace them with stainless steel ones once I order them. Bolts are easy, but I am not sure the double-economy-nut comes in stainless steel. So far I have not applied Loctite on anything but I believe I will at least put it on the 8020-to-8020 connections. The 8020 rails are attached to the roof mounting brackets using carriage bolts and nyloc nuts which I think is fine without Loctite. Not sure if the bolt holds the bracket to the roof would benefit from that - I hope not, since undoing it with the silicone is going to be a pain.
I emailed Kim from DIYVan.com to ask which sealant to use and she recommended RTV silicone. I went with it, but in retrospect I am not sure this was a good decision. It was certainly not a clean job on the bolt heads.

I'm curious to hear people's thoughts:
1) Is the RTV Silicone acceptable? If not, what should I use instead and would I need to remove the silicone or could I just cover it? I was thinking maybe surrounding the brackets with Dicor lap sealant.
2) Are stainless steel fasteners necessary for the outside 8020?
3) Thoughts on Loctite - my understanding is that it is important for 8020-to-8020 stuff but unclear about Hein's brackets.
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#56 · (Edited)
Thanks for sharing this detail and photos. I have the exact same build coming up next week and have the exact same questions.

I have the dicor lap sealant (or the 3M version as alternative) in my cart and plan to try that around the bracket to roof connection.

And yes, i would imagine all 8020 connections would need loctite due to the amount of vibration we'll put into this.
But I'm also curious if other's experience.

I looked through these
Sealant 1
Sealant 2
Sealant 3

Jury is still out but i think I'll use dicor or the 3M 4200
 
#57 ·
#59 ·
The install looks good, RTV will likely be fine since it's not really exposed to anything under the washers. I probably would have gone with butyl tape under instead but should be fine. It does not hurt to add lap sealant or eternabond tape.

Nyloc will be fine, biggest issue with stainless to aluminum will be the galvanic couple but I wouldn't worry about it too much and if you lap seal the roof bolts you likely don't need to switch the hardware. If you were still set on switching I'd probably use an zinc-aluminum coated steel fastener over stainless.

I've heard of people installing the rails on the underside of the brackets but from these images it looks like it'd be basically touching the roof in the cross bars?