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What transmission problem is this?

16K views 44 replies 14 participants last post by  dustboy  
#1 ·
I was driving in traffic, about 15 mph... nice and easy. I heard a loud bang of the type that signals mechanical breakage. And, I had no power delivery... coasted to the side of the road.

I figured the giubo / flex coupling had gone bad, or, had otherwise dropped the drive line. I've got an appt. this week, to have the permanent drive line recall upgrade, so, I really wanted it to be THAT. I noted there were no parts in the road, behind me. I crawled under, and found everything looking intact. When I rotated the drive line a few degrees, it locked up in a way that may be normal... sitting with engine off, in Park.

While waiting for a tow truck, I started the van, and checked what it felt like putting it in R-N-D. There's some torque evident, when shifting from N to R or D. In fact, that makes a bit of a clang-bump. With gentle gas, though, there's no power delivery. I wouldn't put more gas to it, for fear of doing damage.

The tow guy said that Park did not actually engage at all.

Really an unpleasant experience. You try Googling for tow services in your area, and, none have a phone number to call. They expect you to type in info and submit a form? Stupid. I finally made a second call to the tow service the Ford service operator recommended (which I had mis-dialed 10 minutes earlier), and got that going.

The tow guy had a very fancy ramp truck. I asked if he had moved Transits, and he seemed very familiar, and, mentioned some of the problems that we are aware of for towing Transits, so, that was encouraging. I had thought he planned to hook to the anchor loops near the front jack points. Turns out, he hooked into holes in the frame, further back. That managed to bend the exhaust heat shield, a bit... maybe no big deal.

So, what might my problem be? Torque converter? I don't know enough to know what other possibilities there are. 75k on the van, with no previous major issues.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Diagnosis complete, from Ford service: it's the rear end, hoorah! $2300 for standard repair. I have found a local shop that will do an Eaton Truetrac install, for less than that. That shop is closed until Monday, so, I can not have the van moved over there, immediately. Hoping I can stall with Ford -- otherwise, an additional moving fee (expensive, due to miles) would be involved. Meanwhile, I asked Ford service rep if they can do an upgrade to Ford LSD, as part of the repair. She'll check. Hoping she won't get back to me on that, for a couple days.

As someone noted above, the rear end should be pretty bullet proof. Wonder just why it blew up. The only remotely related work was when Ford service put in new rear brakes, and had the axles removed to change the disc brake rotors. The 3-year-old invoice for that work shows 75w140 gear oil added.

MORE

They say I need new ring and pinion, and carrier bearings. I guess the ring and pinion would be additional expenses, to the Eaton install...?
 
#30 ·
Interesting. My diff recently failed as well but totally different symptoms. I had a speed sensitive growl to a whine at all speeds, the van was never incapacitated but the pinion bearing was first to go. All those bits you mentioned were eventually replaced by a dealer, but only after they screwed up the pinion bearing replacement. I have no wish to visit them again, but now I have a whine/hum around 65 mph. Only out about 900 miles on it since the repair so waiting to see what happens next. Oh and only 36 k miles on mine so at least it was done under warranty.
 
#16 ·
You’ll the a new ring and pinion even with the Tru Track. But I believe the true track drops into the open carrier, so you can add it later. Vs clutch-based limited slip which has a unique carrier.

I’d suspect the axle shaft bolts were replaced when your brakes were done, allowing the shaft come out far enough the splines were no longer engaged fully, probably stripping off part of those splines.

Of course, could be a coincidence, and could have been an original assembly error. It’s pretty hard to wear out the Ford 9.75” unless you’re towing super heavy. Remember a weaker version is rated for 17k combined in the F150.
 
#19 · (Edited)
You’ll the a new ring and pinion even with the Tru Track. But I believe the true track drops into the open carrier, so you can add it later. Vs clutch-based limited slip which has a unique carrier.
...
So, let's refresh my memory. Is the carrier what makes it impractical (as I recall) to convert an OEM open to an OEM LSD? Or, something different about the axle housing?

The service rep got back to me, and said they could convert to OEM LSD, which surprised me. Total would be over $2500. 'course, a junkyard LSD rear end would make more sense for going OEM.

Still prefer the Eaton. Either way, I gots to get the van back from Ford. I'll have to check tomorrow, to see if they left it in rolling condition, and how much ransom I'll owe them.
 
#17 ·
Gale Banks has some interesting VIDEOS on what goes on in terms of lubrication inside the differential.
Quite interesting to see inside the operating differential. His major takeaways were that fill height (under or over) is very important and the OEM diff cover design is superior to the after market "upgrades". (except of course the one he is selling).
 
#18 ·
I am adding an Spicer diff. cover. It mimic's the OEM cover in size and shape, also has a drain bolt, so I can change the fluid every 30k. Going to run 80w/90 mineral oil as per Eaton's spec. for Truetrac limited slip. Good video, keep's you from buying extra capacity oil pan, that is worse than OEM.
 
#24 ·
It look like Ford markets that cover under the Ford Performance brand for about 2x the price. I'd hope they do some performance testing or more likely Spicer has done it for Ford. For the price of the Spicer it's not worth modifying the stock cover to add fill and drainplugs added. I guess the iron has greater heat transfer than the steel. Thanks for pointing this option out.
 
#20 ·
The Truetrac is the whole diff. Less the Ring and Pinion gears, and Bearings I just paid $630 including tax free shipping for Truetrac, Bearings and shims for Truetrac $125, you may have to purchase Ring and Pinion gear set, depending on damage. Good time to change Gear Ratio ?
 
#21 ·
Might want to find a Driveline shop (4x4) if the Ring and Pinion need to be replaced. It's not rocket science, but best to have someone with experience. Watch a youtube, read an article on replacing a Ring and Pinion, not something most shops do on a regular basis. I am going to do my own, but shouldn't have to touch the Pinion gear, only 20k miles and not regearing. The diff. In the Transit uses a Crush sleeve to set Pinion gear preload, not fun and not for someone with no experience.
 
#22 ·
Since the axles have to be pulled to do the rear brakes, maybe they messed something up, got some foreign material in there, or forced the axles back in with a hammer because "they weren't going". Or maybe the diff went bad without any help at all.
 
#26 ·
I believe the Ford performance cover is cast aluminum, vs the Spicer which is cast iron. The aluminum would have better heat transfer. Don't think that will be an issue for my useage. The flatness not great, had about .015 thousandth of inch (5 sheets of paper) bow. Comes with gasket that .032 thick so with alittle gasket sealer I am sure it would not have leaked. Being a machinist I couldn't let it go so I recut the gasket surface. Hope it dampens the noise alittle, can never be to quiet.
 
#27 ·
Today's update: when I told the Ford service rep that I planned to move the van to an independent shop, and have Eaton LSD installed, she and service manager said they could do the Eaton install, which surprised me. I suggested the independent would probably be less expensive, but, sent them the specs. Their parts guy is going to check sources and pricing, and they will get me an estimate.

I know the conventional wisdom, here, is NOT to let the dealer shops work on things. But, I had walked into the independent power train shop cold -- no references or reviews. For all I know, they could be hacks. This Ford rear end has been around for a decade or so, so, the dealer mechanics should have some experience with them.

We'll see.
 
#28 ·
I've had my Ford dealer to aftermarket upgrades as well. I had them install airbags on my van when it was already in the shop getting other work done on the lift. Work was priced fairly, they did a good job, and I didn't have to be under the van in the rain. Since the already have the van, price might come out with an indy shop once you factor in putting things back together to roll it out, then towing it.
 
#32 ·
One possible benefit of letting the disservice center do it, longer or better warranty. AND you know they're going to be there in a year. Probably.
 
#34 · (Edited)
3 weeks since breakdown -- should have been a happy day, but, was not.

The service manager and I had negotiated a repair price I could live with -- about $400 less than the original estimate for straight repair to my open differential, and I bought the Eaton Detroit TrueTrac from Summit Racing, to be installed as part of the repair.

Today was to be take home day. I was pleased to hear that the mechanic had done a test drive. No test drive for me, until after I paid. I did not make it off the lot: Noisy gears, clanging and banging.

The clanging and banging seemed, to me, to be shift-related. Shop foreman did a drive around the lot, put it on the rack, and said there's a transmission problem. Maybe lockup on one end had caused failure in the other end? The mechanic had supposedly driven it 14 miles. More likely, he put it in Drive, on the lift, and let it idle off 14 miles... no transmission shifting involved.

But, the noisy gears may indicate bad differential setup.

Have to see the service manager, Monday. This could get ugly.

BTW, I did have the old diff. parts saved. I didn't get to do a full inspection yet, but did see chunks missing from the ring and pinion gears.
 
#37 ·
So, I'll be having a new transmission installed... which I really expected, from the start. It arrived to the dealership today, and work can be done next week.

BUT, it just occurred to me, to wonder: will they replace or re-use my original torque converter? At 75,000 miles, and having heard of torque converters gone bad, should I be requesting that the torque converter get changed? If that's not a standard item for new transmission, I'd have to pay for it... anyone know what the parts cost would be?

No, I have not noted any symptoms of torque converter problems, to date.
 
#40 · (Edited)
It's time to wrap up this thread. I have posted some of this in other threads, but, there's more...

My rear end (open differential) had self destructed. The damage in the rear end was so massive that the shock through the drive shaft also destroyed the transmission. AND, destroyed the axle housing. Over the course of 9 weeks, each time one repair was done, it would highlight the next problem that had not yet been discovered.

You get into parts ordering, waiting, tech specialist availability, lift availability, adjustments, having to redo part of the job... and the time drags out. In the end, though, I believe that getting the work done at a dealership shop was the right way to go.

It was a tech at the dealership that helped me understand how the carnage had begun, likely due to no thread locker compound used on the retaining bolt, shown in this pic...
Image

And, that tech also suggested that I appeal to Ford Customer Care, for out-of-warranty assistance. And, that really paid off. My repair costs / estimates had escalated to about $11,200. A few hours after pleading my case to Ford, I got a call back with news that I would receive about $4,700 in adjustments and rebates.

My total out of pocket expense was reduced to about $6,200, including about $300 I had negotiated off of the first differential repair, which also included upgrade to an Eaton TrueTrac LSD. The new transmission comes with a new torque converter, and 3 year warranty. At this point, it didn't hurt so bad.

If I had been at an independent shop, there's no way Ford would have kicked in with financial assistance. Another thing that I appreciated about the Ford shop, was that their size allowed them certain flexibility in keeping the work site (my van on the lift, in pieces) preserved while waiting for parts. At one point, my van took up space on a lift for an entire week, with nothing happening. Independent shops would have a hard time tying up a lift like that. There would be great temptation to try to patch the vehicle into rolling form, gather the parts, and push it out the door to make way for another vehicle... a recipe for disaster.
 
#41 ·
Glad you arrived at a (relatively) happy ending! It sounds like overall you had a positive experience with your dealer service department. Would you mind sharing which dealer this was, for the benefit of others in this community who may be local to you?

And, is that retaining bolt supposed to have thread locker compound from the factory? Or is it standard to not have thread locker?

I have found SO MANY issues with our van after only owning it for fewer than 5,000 miles. I am terrified of how many issues are hidden and may present themselves farther down the road.
 
#42 ·
Glad you arrived at a (relatively) happy ending! It sounds like overall you had a positive experience with your dealer service department. Would you mind sharing which dealer this was, for the benefit of others in this community who may be local to you?

And, is that retaining bolt supposed to have thread locker compound from the factory? Or is it standard to not have thread locker?

I have found SO MANY issues with our van after only owning it for fewer than 5,000 miles. I am terrified of how many issues are hidden and may present themselves farther down the road.
My work was done at Rivertown Ford, in Columbus, GA -- same dealership that sold me the van.

The tech said he thought it should have thread locker (may have been hedging... not wanting to second-guess the factory). I've heard from others, including this thread, that thread locker is commonly (but not universally) used, and that this type of incident happens more than it should, with open differentials of any make.