[Travlin]

Thanks Orton!

The Electrowarmth T36 12 Volt Sleeping Pad is available on Amazon. But, I'm not linking it because of the stupid way this site displays Amazon links. Just search using the bit in bold.

I've purchased and have yet to install a Noco Genius GCP1 Plug port, likely to be installed in the rear bumper trim or beside the hitch wiring connections. Very stealthy either way. An idea copied from another forum member's contribution.

This will be the Stage 1 Electrical setup, connected to a charger/inverter and a house battery in the van. (still studying options for this) It could be plugged it in at home to keep the house battery topped off. Eventually will integrate this as part of a more complex solar charging system as Stage 2.

The goal of this Stage 1 Electrical build will be to provide options for using RV park hookups or battery / inverter to power things when weekend camping. Heat, cooking, CPAP, LED lighting, etc. are the initial loads expected.

Fortunately I have a background in electronics, which only means that I'm suited to understand the enormity of the myriad options available to choose from to accomplish this, and, how to calculate the loads to determine the spec for the components. Thankful for all the info here from those who have been down this path.

 

[Hein]

This does indicate 3 layers of CS150 provides the same R value of SM600L in 3/4 the thickness.

Based on your research, it appears that the R-values don't quite line up for Thinsulate(TM). Published numbers for SM400L at 1" is R3.7 and the SM600L at 1.75" is R5.2. They are exactly the same material so if the 400L is 3.7 then the 600L should be 6.5. Not sure what 3M is doing here. I'll check in to that further.

The CS-150 R-value number may be based on usage in clothing or blankets which include outer layers. Additionally, the automotive versions pass the FMVSS-302 flammability requirement.

We have CS-150 on hand and there is no way that the 3 layers of that will provide the same insulating performance as one layer of SM600L. Appreciate that you wanted to save money and are under the impression that you somehow achieved better performance. I don't think you accomplished either one. And obviously are having to do a lot more work.

I have also seen the claimed R38 material and that's obviously a misprint or false claim. R-value claims are a notoriously dubious business. We base our insulation recommendations on observed results and feedback from hundreds of customers using their vans in all types of climates.

 

[Travlin]

Based on your research, it appears that the R-values don't quite line up for Thinsulate(TM). Published numbers for SM400L at 1" is R3.7 and the SM600L at 1.75" is R5.2. They are exactly the same material so if the 400L is 3.7 then the 600L should be 6.5. Not sure what 3M is doing here. I'll check in to that further.

The CS-150 R-value number may be based on usage in clothing or blankets which include outer layers. Additionally, the automotive versions pass the FMVSS-302 flammability requirement.

We have CS-150 on hand and there is no way that the 3 layers of that will provide the same insulating performance as one layer of SM600L. Appreciate that you wanted to save money and are under the impression that you somehow achieved better performance. I don't think you accomplished either one. And obviously are having to do a lot more work.

I have also seen the claimed R38 material and that's obviously a misprint or false claim. R-value claims are a notoriously dubious business. We base our insulation recommendations on observed results and feedback from hundreds of customers using their vans in all types of climates.

Thanks for the input Hein. All I have to go with is the numbers I've found. Much of what you are claiming is pure speculation on your part. I seriously doubt any manufacturer would base their R numbers on as wide a variable as the expectation of other fabric coverings that 3M has no control over.

The reduction in noise I've measured seems to show that the CS150 has done as good a job as I could have hoped it would. I've used many other items made with the garment grade Thinsulate product that have performed amazingly. I can also speculate that the garment industry probably moves more Thinsulate than does the Automotive industry and this might reflect how the costs are lower if production is indeed higher and the market broader.

I don't sell either product. You sell SM600L. This may be biasing your perspective. As far as I can discern you have a monopoly on the retail sale of SM600L. If there is a competitive source for SM600L I have been unable to locate it.

There are a variety of sources for CS150 and, after comparing prices, Vogue Fabrics offered the best value. You mentioned having purchased your roll of CS150 from them too.

Other than offering another way of doing things I have no dog in this hunt. You have a profit stream that this alternative might affect.

All I do know it that it wasn't any significant amount of extra trouble to put on two or three layers than it was to put on one. Maybe six minutes instead of three per section being insulated. As I've stated before, I have no experience with SM600L, but the installation of CS150 seemed to me to be remarkably easy compared to putting in the L-Track, or building the floor. Any extra time it took wasn't enough to concern me. It was far from being "a lot more work."

The five hours I spent installing those running boards, now THAT was a lot of work.

All I'm interested in is whether CS150 does the job intended. From what I have been able to tell it is doing the job better than all of the alternatives to Thinsulate would have done, both in regard to install, as well as thermal and acoustic performance. I'm sharing my experience with other people who are building van conversions, just as you have done.

I offer my apologies to you if this information has rained upon your parade. Targeting your income stream wasn't my intention, nor the purpose of me sharing my experience. I was simply trying out another way to skin this cat, and it seems to be quite satisfactory, to me.

In closing, I do sincerely appreciate all that you have offered to this community and have found it helpful reading about your experiences, as well as so many other's experiences, who, like us, share what they have done.

 

[Travlin]

Based on your research, it appears that the R-values don't quite line up for Thinsulate(TM). Published numbers for SM400L at 1" is R3.7 and the SM600L at 1.75" is R5.2. They are exactly the same material so if the 400L is 3.7 then the 600L should be 6.5. Not sure what 3M is doing here. I'll check in to that further.

More thoughts on this. The data you have observed could indicate how Thinsulate does the job so well that most of it is accomplished in the initial section of material. Adding additional depth may offer diminishing returns, rather than linear improvement.

Smaller is better may be exactly what those numbers indicate.

0.41" is 1.7;
1" is 3.7;
1.75" is 5.2.

Some quick work with a charting program would produce a curve that represents the effects of thickness on performance across these materials. That curve will be less steep the thicker the material becomes.

I've calculated a relative R-value equivalent per inch for each of the flavors:

CS150 ______ 4.148R per inch _____ (1/.41 = 2.44, 2.44 x 1.7 = 4.148)

SM400L _____ 3.7R per inch _______ (it is an inch already, no math involved) 89% performance compared to CS150

SM600L _____ 2.971R per inch _____ (1/1.75 = 0.5714, 0.5714 x 5.2 = 2.971) 80% performance compared to SM400L, 72% performance compared to CS150

This indicates that per thickness the CS150 outperforms the others as suspected. However, when layered it may follow the same curve as the other two with diminishing R-value per inch as thickness grows.

Essentially, this means that all Thinsulate is pretty amazing stuff, and especially effective in smaller thicknesses, which is why the use in garments, sleeping bags, and so many comfort products is very popular. Only time will tell if I made the right choice, but I feel the numbers are with me so far. Looking forward to testing it in the wild.

Regarding the FMVSS rating (presumably the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard?), I know that the garment industry probably has no incentive to pony up additional expense to call for this material to meet a motor vehicle standard. Having some experience with UL and similar testing, when companies pay independent labs to test for meeting a safety standard, they will always recoup this by increasing the price of the product. If a company sells both a rated product and an unrated version of the identical product, the rated one will cost more.

Is there any difference between SM600L and CS150 composition? Is SM600L treated with additional coatings to meet this standard, or, only has been tested to qualify to display the rating? The answers to questions like these are the only way to determine the importance of this rating when considering other Thinsulate products.

Perhaps CS150 has been tested to meet a similar garment flammability rating? I don't know. Though I am happy that a cousin to it in the automotive sector meets this standard and would think this lends itself to a presumption that even though another Thinsulate product isn't rated is no reason to conclude it wouldn't also pass the same test. Still, the buyer would pay more if it did.

Considering how many potential things that could burn which a person converting will be installing, how much of a concern is this? Should I be replacing my floor plywood or cabinet materials with a Nomex composite? Probably not. Does R-Max polyiso meet any FMVSS rated standards? Probably not.

This rating is something that motor vehicle OEM's will need in order to use that material in production vehicles that must meet federal regulations. DIYs aren't on the list of those burdened with this requirement. Sure, it would be nice to know, but at what cost for that peace of mind? Particularly when these materials are very likely made of the same stuff.

These are the sort of things that go through my mind when choosing materials for this project. A recent reply in another thread regarding use of marine grade wiring, due to the higher heat rating on the insulation, might be a really good thing to pay a little extra for. Not doing so could contribute to the cause of a fire.

Calling for this rating on a product bearing the same name as one that does hold the rating, and which has no direct affect on whether or not a fire starts in the first place, isn't as high on my list of priorities to demand compliance in my build.

YMMV

Edit: Added R-value per Inch Equivalent Data to better show the effectiveness of each thickness of insulation.

 

[Hack Saw]

So...I looked up 3M, found this product inquiry site;
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-Company/Information/ContactUs/
...and asked:
"Hello-
I am a member of a RV Campervan forum; specifically the FORD Transit Van (http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/). For winter/summer recreactional use, insulating a van is a must. Besides common house-building materials that some use it has been found that your Thinsulate products are utilized also by the 'van-crowd' to obtain an habitable environment including below freezing. I wish to inquire which of the two stated above 3M products (CS150 & SM600) performs superior to the other in such an application: R-rating. This includes the ability to multi-layer CS150 as it is thinner than one application of SM600. Now, I don't want to be difficult but I would greatly appreciate the name, if not at least the title, of the representative you assign this task. If at all easier I be happy to contact them by phone given the permission. While one product, if I am correct here, is more for a clothing application and the other for sound, insulation properties exist for both and it is this; which of the two is the preferred product to insulate a 'cargo van' in order to obtain the highest R-rating possible, and how to go about achieving this R-rating, I wish to be made aware of also."
Thank you,
HS
Email Confirmation-SENT

 

[alan&joni]

I could have likely fit another three or four layers in many of those spaces. Some of the cavities are pretty deep. Figure on 10 mm (.41 in.) and R-1.7 per layer and measure the available depth to, say, a board spanning the cavity. I did it this way so the R-Max would put an insulator between the ribs and the air space, eliminating the issue mentioned earlier that Antoine discovered.

Considering how many folks are pretty happy with one layer of SM600L going beyond three or so layers of CS150 might be overkill. Unless an AC unit is planned or other factors justify a higher R value.

If acoustic damping is the goal, putting a layer or two in the doors and other places I haven't done yet might yield less noise without further layering in areas already covered.

This should provide some basic data to plan with.

THANKS for taking the time to answer my question !!!

 

[Travlin]

Stuck a Cork in it

A Cork floor that is.

It was a steep learning curve for me, having no prior experience with click-lock floating floor installation. Finally figured out how putting a little wood glue film in the click channels gave it enough resistance to prevent already connected pieces from dislodging when adding new planks. The job isn't perfect, though the oopses are all on the edges and will be covered by other things. There's enough cork left to finish out the Slider entrance and I'm cogitatin' upon a strategy to approach this "next step." har har

Overall, a WIN for team Vanderloosed!

For those who measure a job this way, I polished off un Modelo Especial and two slices of deep dish Sicilian pizza upon completion. So, this was an international effort!

Now off to Home Depot for some step trim and a few other things.

 

[mntransit]

Hi Travlin, I'm very interested in cork, read WN1A http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/484666-post7.html
comment about using it. Last night went to Lowes but they only had 1 sample to look at. USFloors Natural Cork. Called Green Homes of Seattle where he bought his and the lady there also recommended Marmoleum but I'm leaning towards straight cork.
I have a medium roof van also, 130wb and would like to know what you put on under the cork.
Thanks!!!

 

[Travlin]

Hi Travlin, I'm very interested in cork, read WN1A http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/484666-post7.html
comment about using it. Last night went to Lowes but they only had 1 sample to look at. USFloors Natural Cork. Called Green Homes of Seattle where he bought his and the lady there also recommended Marmoleum but I'm leaning towards straight cork.
I have a medium roof van also, 130wb and would like to know what you put on under the cork.
Thanks!!!

I bought the Heritage Mill flooring from Home Depot and it includes a built-in cork underlayment. So, cork on both sides, which I liked because of the added acoustic and thermal insulation it provided. Found the Tea color on sale and three boxes was enough to do the 148" with just enough left over. I think the total with tax was under $150. It looks a lot better in person than their website photo. I was able to get a sample from the store.

Unlike WN1A, I added another layer of plywood (11/32) over the ribs. His idea of filling the valleys and just laying the cork floor would have probably worked fine and afforded a little more headroom.

 

[chris_the_wrench]

Looks great! Are you planning on mounting any cabinets you install to the wood studs you installed or to the metal of the body?

-Chris

A Cork floor that is.

It was a steep learning curve for me, having no prior experience with click-lock floating floor installation. Finally figured out how putting a little wood glue film in the click channels gave it enough resistance to prevent already connected pieces from dislodging when adding new planks. The job isn't perfect, though the oopses are all on the edges and will be covered by other things. There's enough cork left to finish out the Slider entrance and I'm cogitatin' upon a strategy to approach this "next step." har har

Overall, a WIN for team Vanderloosed!

For those who measure a job this way, I polished off un Modelo Especial and two slices of deep dish Sicilian pizza upon completion. So, this was an international effort!

Now off to Home Depot for some step trim and a few other things.

 

[Travlin]

Looks great! Are you planning on mounting any cabinets you install to the wood studs you installed or to the metal of the body?

-Chris

Lower cabinets will attach to the L-Track (which is bolted through the wood into to the metal body) with stud fittings that I purchased with the L-Track.

Upper cabinets will attach to the van's built-in fixed nuts. I drilled access holes into the upper 1x3 boards on each side.

Still working out the overall plan for that layout.

 

[Travlin]

One small step for a van, one giant leap for Vanderloosed

Finished the last remaining details on the floor install today. Came out looking pretty spiffy I think.

The Rear threshold is a 3/4" board cut to fit, drilled for spare crank and attachment screws, sanded, and wiped down with Danish Oil. As is the Luan back board on the slider step, also finished with Danish Oil.

Here's the pics. 'cuz it did happen. (Took a lot longer than anticipated) Dos Modelo Especial were required. May become three here shortly.

 

[Alison]

Finished the last remaining details on the floor install today. Came out looking pretty spiffy I think.

The Rear threshold is a 3/4" board cut to fit, drilled for spare crank and attachment screws, sanded, and wiped down with Danish Oil. As is the Luan back board on the slider step, also finished with Danish Oil.

Here's the pics. 'cuz it did happen. (Took a lot longer than anticipated) Dos Modelo Especial were required. May become three here shortly.

Looks great! How's the diffence in sound?

 

[Travlin]

Looks great! How's the diffence in sound?

The difference has been significant. I have some hearing loss from years of motorcycling and can now have a conversation with the Mrs. in the passenger seat without all the huh, what, and the like. Also don't have to crank up the radio to blaring level, which is nice.

The measurements taken indicate a ten-fold reduction in noise on the road at several speeds. Because db sound levels are a strange measurement it is tough to convey, but overall I'm very pleased with the results.

 

[Travlin]

Cut, sanded, applied Danish Oil, and installed two wall panels on the driver's side. Realized an oversight on my part when installing the R-Max, not putting in wood to attach the panel's meeting edges to.

This was an issue for me as I had cut a divot in the back of the R-Max to cover that square bump on the C-pillar. I removed the R-Max and cut a channel into it from the top, down to where that divot is, and made it wide enough to fit a piece of the 1x4.

I'd had purchasing a Kreg tool in mind for a while, putting off buying it until I needed it which turned out to be serendipitous, as the $40.00 Kreg Pocket Hole Jig kit at Lowes was upgraded since my last visit. It is a couple dollars higher, and includes one of the Kreg clamps. Better yet, it was purchased with a gift card I received from the recent Cooper tire purchase for the van.

I employed this jig to put 4 Pocket Holes in one end of the 1x4 and mounted it to the lower edge of the upper 1x3, that goes down to the top edge of the square bump. Considering how all it has to do is hold the edges of the paneling I didn't bother to attach the lower end. I expect to get more use from the jig going forward, for use on cabinet work. I didn't take photos, but will if I remove the panels (likely) during the build.

Here's a pic of the mounted panels, notice the notches at the Bolt holes along the top edge. These will be used for mounting upper storage of some sort.

 

[Travlin]

Installed the Upper passenger side panel, Kuat Dirt Bag fork mount, and Folding Sofa/Bed. These are in preparation for the first trial camping run to reconnoiter whether I'm getting the bases covered for form and function. I'll get a good idea of how I'll be using the space in order to plan going forward.

The panel was straight forward, similar to the opposite side in how I left cutouts to access the upper structural nuts/bolts for future use. The difference on this panel was how I put a 1x4 horizontally between the upper and lower 1x lumber to have a secure mounting for the Kuat Dirt Bag 15mm x 100mm fork mount to hang the bike on. Using the Kreg Pocket Jig I placed four screws top and bottom to secure this. Then cut the panel to fit over the Kuat and installed. Included are photos that show different views of this mount. The pedal view didn't show what I intended, that there is an inch or more clearance to the door. Several other's similar mounts required removing the pedals and I was quite pleased that this will work fine without that hassle. I will need to address stabilization and contact potential as the bike will swing on that mount. The handlebar taps the cableway above the rear door. I think a bungie or velcro strap, and some Pipe Insulation Foam to slip over the handlebar and pedal to prevent contact/noise will tie it all together like The Dude's rug did his apartment. The wagon wheel bike fits the space nicely.

The Folding Sofa/Bed is in place, though I'll need to back the hanger up with 1x lumber to add strength against the bending as seen in the photo. Should be an easy enough fix. This is about all I'll do before the trial run next weekend

 

[Travlin]

On the Fence?

In packing up today preparing for a trip I got to thinking about cargo management, and that nasty tendency for things to go sliding to the rear whenever the whine of the turbos increase.

Hence the fence, which was cobbled from stuff laying around, and, Thanksgivingly, the project let me employ that fancy Kregg jig once more.

Don't shoot me for saying so, but that's an OK Corral that can be quickly and easily inserted or removed as needed.

It was time well spent. I have plans to install small hooks for grocery bags, incorporate a way to store it into my cabinet build, and have a few other ideas that might provide other uses for this treasure.

I no longer feel defenseless while dealing with loose cargo.

Enjoy!

 

[ricphoto]

+1 on the pocket hole jig...it gets addicting

might think about the pocket hole "plugs" to finish it off...

[ame]https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-P-PIN-Plugs-Pockets-50-Pack/dp/B000068PIF/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511479340&sr=8-2&keywords=pocket+hole+plugs[/ame]

 

[perchancetodream]

The Folding Sofa/Bed is in place, though I'll need to back the hanger up with 1x lumber to add strength against the bending as seen in the photo. Should be an easy enough fix. This is about all I'll do before the trial run next weekend

Nice. A step up from my current cot and hammock stand. Where did you get the folding sofa bed?

 

[Travlin]

+1 on the pocket hole jig...it gets addicting

might think about the pocket hole "plugs" to finish it off...

https://www.amazon.com/Kreg-P-PIN-P.../B000068PIF/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511479340&sr=8-2&keywords=pocket+hole+plugs

Thanks for the suggestion.

There's a bag of those plugs that came with the Kreg kit. I'm holding off on any finishing until I think it through a little more. No need to plug if I decide to cover it with Luan, make it into a folding table, etc.