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Sound Deadening?

128K views 107 replies 49 participants last post by  aiwasusan  
#1 ·
Has anybody tried adding Dynamat or similar to try to quiet the interior?

I've got the 148" low roof long body. There seems to be very little wind noise - a little from the A pillars. Most of the interior highway speed noise is road/tire noise.

Has anybody added Dynamat to the floor? Did it change the interior noise? What about doors and sides?

Having added Dynamat to my previous cars, I found it mostly quiets wind noise, but not road noise. So I'm curious if it's worth doing in the transit. Maybe there's already sound dampening already in the body.
 
#36 ·
I was talking with a sound system installer today and he indicated that Ice and Water Shield (a rubber barrier used for roofing) is an effective and economical material for sound proofing automotive floors. It doesn't work on walls though. I assume that it becomes unstuck.
 
#39 ·
It's not bs. Look- READ some of the other applications... Personally, I did Refectix on the skin of the van, followed by Thinsulate on the Reflectix, and then added Reflectix on the inside wall panels, thus creating an open air barrier between them. That, in addition to the foss covering the wall panels, made a night-and-day difference. But by all means, if you want to spend $3K+ on dynamat, go right ahead.



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#41 ·
There is a very thick rubber building material adhesive that I purchased at Home Depot before, it's like 1/16" inch or thicker. No foil on it. I think it's 8 or 10 inches wide by 20-25' long. I used it on my old Corvair with pretty good success. Some people said it loses adhesion on vertical surfaces when it gets hot, but that never happened to me. The density and weight of it makes for a pretty good sound barrier.
 
#55 ·
Check out this video a guy did with bituthene.


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You should never use roofing material inside of a closed off and sealed vehicle, especially if you plan on living inside of this thing as an RV. It is not good for your health to be breathing in those asphalt and tar toxic out gassing vapors. Not to mention, that stuff will melt in hot conditions. Insist on high quality American made butyl rubber for all your sound deadening needs.
 
#52 ·
The 08840 varies in price by dealer; from 3M it's $2.20 sqft, from Amazon it's $10 sqft (unless they listed it wrong, says "1 pad").
 
#53 ·
At this point I don't have a dog in this hunt and am exploring all the possibilities and their use in my intended application. I want to find something that will both reduce thermal transfer and provide a modicum of acoustic damping in the rather tight space I have to work with.

Looking at Prodex on the "insulation4less" website it clearly states that in order to achieve the high R-value listed for the product it requires an air space on both sides of the product.

"FACT #5:Prodex Total insulation 5mm has an R-value of 16. The R-value was measured under the real-world parameters of:
24-inch on center 2" x 6" wood assembly. Roof application. Test Method ASTM 1116. Airspace of 2.64 inch on each side of product. Heat flow direction down."


This business of putting 2.5" of airspace on both sides of Prodex to achieve stated R-values seems like quite a hassle when it comes to van installation. Perhaps it is possible by cutting foam blocks that are glued to the Prodex and then to the skin of the van, then again between the inside of the Prodex and whatever covering will be covering the walls and ceiling. Then using some tape to place the edges at just the right place. It could be rather time consuming if one expects to achieve the full effect. Still, it is unlikely to get the same airspace as used in the test above, and less airspace may likely equate to a lower R.

Reflectix publishes that their product only provides R-1 when applied directly to a surface. On the "Fact vs. Fiction" page of the Prodex vendor's site no mention is made of the R value of Prodex when applied directly to a surface the way most probably would on the skin of a van. It does list a 19dba "contact noise" reduction on that page, which is a significant amount of acoustic damping.

Prodex does seem as if it would be better suited to insulation and sound damping than Reflectix. Mostly because of the Poly filler instead of bubble-wrap. Still, both products require air space on both sides to get maximum thermal insulation benefit. How either fares for damping sound could be quite good, but we're dealing with a limited space where the goal is to do both thermal and acoustic insulation.

I'm leaning toward Thinsulate for the walls and ceiling as I have owned coats and sleeping bags with the stuff and it is quite amazing the way it prevents body heat transfer. The fact that the SM600L is listed in 3M's Acoustic line and not as insulation probably is an indicator of the purpose this product was designed for. I've not known 3M to be anything but good at what they do based on the products I've used. They aren't known for selling purpose-designed products that don't work as advertised, the way some companies often come to be known for.

As for the floor, I'm wanting to avoid adding significant thickness in a MR van so will investigate closed cell foam that is sold for sound damping, in 3/8" or 1/2" thickness, with maybe 3/8" to 1/2" plywood over it, and something attractive and durable on top. This should also meet the light duty needs of Texas camping with the occasional trip to higher elevations in the Summer.

In the mean time I'll keep reading, looking for the magic combination that will fit my purpose best.
 
#54 ·
At Second Skin we offer many different products for many different applications and van styles. We out fit about 10 transit van customers a week. Give us a call or email and we will be glad to help you get the best American made sound deadening for your project. 17 years of high quality American made sound and heat insulation manufacturing with customer reviews all over the net. Website is in signature. Have a great day.

Team Second Skin
 
#56 ·
If you look at the 3M sound curve for Thinsulate sm600l, the effectiveness falls off rapidly below about 600hz. I suspect well placed vibration dampening stick-ons can help a lot with low frequencies. I don't think low frequency treatment in addition to Thinsulate would be an unnecessary addition.
 
#57 ·
From what I believe I understand after reading on this, the butyl mats (Dynamat, Noico, Fatmat) stop the panel resonance. For radiated sound waves, Thinsulate handles the mid/higher frequencies and MLV (mass loaded vinyl) is needed to block the lower frequences. You need all three for maximum noise reduction. MLV is a pain because kinda like the Prodex, it has to hang freely, not applied to a surface, so can't be used on ceilings. I think Hein's point is probably the best from a practical aspect. You can't get perfection in the van and there is a significant dropoff in return on investment so just throwing in the Thinsulate is probably the best solution for practical results and value.

People like me who are not engineers and don't fully understand a topic tend to throw in everything under the "more must be better" theory. I definitely have that tendency, afraid that just thinsulate isn't good enough.
 
#58 ·
I used MLV for the floor. My understanding is that it works best if isolated from the surface intended to be dampened. Somewhere I read that could be accomplished (or at least the situation improved) by interposing a layer of foam. I used 1/8" polyethylene as a top and bottom layer over/under the MLV before laying the plywood.
 
#64 ·
Lots of questions from a noob!

This one's a little all over the place. After reading this entire thread, I feel slightly more confused re: condensation vs insulation. Plus I have a couple of other practical questions and the solo road trip is coming up fast.

I have the low roof, shorter, 2017 10 seater XLT wagon. We plan on using it for sleeping only sparingly, as we prefer tent camping, but I am planning a short "test" road trip wherein I will try sleeping in the van with a cot in place of the 3rd row seat, which I need to remove tomorrow. I don't have the roof vent which I have seen in several videos and which seems to be the end all be all, & at present have no plans for one. Besides, I know I will figure out a way to ruin the van even if I did know how to cut through the roof. I am going to test the van as is (minus the rear bucket seat & rest of the 3rd row) and the single mounting bracket that a friend removed for me, from under the floor, which left the big screw hole open to the road. I bought a long roll of approx 1/2" rubber matting to install under the seats, but over the carpet - the extent I think I can handle given my limited skills (anything bigger than a dremel is a little out of my league). But that will only dampen the sound a bit and is more for dirt and debris control.

Right now, that screw hole is a huge source of road noise. Also, without that short mounting bracket which was sticking up from the carpet, that corner of the floor bends downward, so I will also need to stick something in there temporarily to add support back to the floor. Maybe a short piece of PVC 1.5"? We also purchased the thinner OEM molding for the van, which is supposed to come with the vans that have running boards, from factory, but ours didn't. We had the heavy duty custom running boards installed, sharp metal diamond ones, but kept knocking off the wider OEM molding that sat right outside the sliding door. I haven't ridden in it with the new molding installed, but even the older, wider molding made a HUGE difference in noise reduction compared to when we just removed that entirely for our last 2 road trips, since it kept falling off, as most of the clamps were broken.

I am considering getting the thinsulate from Hein, for simplicity sake, because I am not much of a car guy, and while I know it will be a challenge for me, I think I can handle it. But I have read on other threads about a concern for condensation build up which may ruin the thinsulate. Plus, I'll have to figure out how to unscrew the floor and try to put it back properly. Now if it's the same thinsulate in some many fleece gloves, that you can wash, I find that notion silly, but still wanted to ask, as I am not familiar with Hein's product.

As far as temperature insulation, I live in deep South Texas, where it's hot most of the time and hotter the rest. I'm not too worried about cold getting in (I can always add more layers), it's the heat I'm worried about both while at rest and while driving. I have a small 12" AC & battery powered fan I plan to use to help at night while camping, but not sure about the condensation at night or road noise during the day. At night, I considered cracking the 2 front windows slightly if condensation becomes a problem, but am worried about the mosquitoes and days in the summer with high humidity if we go anywhere near a lake. I ordered the van with the extra battery for accessories, but don't know if I have to keep the van on in accessory mode to have the lighter socket power that fan all night, or if it has an auto shut off when the key is out of the ignition or after a couple of hours. I read that I shouldn't be able to kill the battery the way it is set up. But I do have that uncanny skill to break thinks that others say can't be broken, so I figured the more information I have, the less likely that will be.

I'll stop here but please feel free to chime in or mods can move the post if it is in the wrong section. Thanks in advance!
 
#65 ·
Looking at things, the automotive ones are the ones to use. They do cost a lot more. If any foam surface is cut, it needs to be sealed with a compatible sealant.

Automotive foams
This is a good primer on them: http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/auto-foam-proper-application-and-placement/

SEM DUAL-MIX™ FLEXIBLE URETHANE FOAM Part #39357
https://www.semproducts.com/product/dual-mixtm-flexible-urethane-foam/foam
Automotive, but temps not told.
Remains flexible.

LORD Fusor® 121/124 flexible foam can be used for sound deadening, sealing and filling of door skins to crash bar, hood panel to supports, trunk panel to supports and gas tank filler area.
https://www.lord.com/products-and-solutions/adhesives/fusor-121124-flexible-foam-(super-fast)
https://www.lord.com/products-and-s...or---aftermarket-repair-adhesives/fusor-seam-sealing-and-sound-control-products

Home use foams.

http://www.ositough.com/en/products/view-all-products/foam-sealant-quad-foam.html
OSI Quad Foam, Lowes and Home Depot handle it. Low expansion, low pressure foam that remains flexible. R5 insulation ability. Caution, the straw applicator likes to fail. Use the gun style cans. Only 194F for long duration exposure. Not quite to automotive temp range.

HANDI-FOAM® WINDOW & DOOR FOAM SEALANT
http://www.fomo.com/Data/Sites/1/As.../ModuleDependencies/csFomoMediaView/media/A16157 Handi Foam Window and Door.pdf
Not sure of it's flexibility after cure. Will handle 240F like most of the rest of the Handi-Foam line.
All the Handi-Foam variants http://www.fomo.com/sds-tds.aspx

Touch-N-Seal No-Warp Gun Foam
• R Value - 4.5 per inch thickness
• Max. Service Temp for Cured Foam - 250ºF (121ºC)
Does not mention flexibility after cure.

EverKem Titan Window and Door Foam
http://www.everkemproducts.com/product/tytan-windowdoor/
Handles up to 212F. Not as dense as some of the other foams, and only 50% closed cell content. Does not mention flexibility after cure.

Soudafoam Door & Window should be boycotted because they make you ask permission to see their technical and safety data sheets.
https://soudafoam.com/soudafoam-door-window/
Service Temperature -40°F to 194°F
Does not mention flexibility after cure.

ADO Products
http://adoproducts.com/accelsite/media/2843/Catalog 2011.pdf
Can't find details...

Notice I said "Does not mention flexibility after cure." often. :(
 
#66 · (Edited)
You're working hard. Or lot of time on your hands. ;) Or you really want this.

I would assume that all of the home foams will be inflexible after cure. No reason for them to remain flexible. Whereas the automotive should be and better be flexible after cure.

Thanks for sharing your hard work. You info my inform my decision on whether using any foam as adhesive for skin surfaces.


Just curious; why is sound deadening so important to you that you are willing to go through so much effort and money? I'm aiming for "good enough" which has worked OK in the rest of my life since I can't do the incredible work of some people on this site.
 
#67 ·
You're working hard.
No, this is easy brainless work.
Or lot of time on your hands. ;)
... ME/CFS has nearly killed all my ability to do sustained physical labor. Mental work requires less energy, but still requires some.
Or you really want this.
Yeah. In a way I'm planning for when I get better. I want to do nature photography again and would like a van/rv to work out of. This farm is killing me. The labor is way to much for me to handle anymore.
I would assume that all of the home foams will be inflexible after cure. No reason for them to remain flexible. Whereas the automotive should be and better be flexible after cure.
The OSI Quad Foam remained flexible.

There are other reasons I'd not likely use it. It seams that even when they say it is closed cell, they have many open cells. This goes for all home spray in foams. It would need sealing with a paint. Any cut foam surface also needs sealing. Yeah, I read a lot in addition to just product spec sheets. I even read some research reports.

Thanks for sharing your hard work. You info my inform my decision on whether using any foam as adhesive for skin surfaces.
You're welcome. I will mention doing the research myself gets me a better understanding of the full picture with all the little issues too. It helps me know what is really going on. It's like the issue with the Trik-L-Start. It sounded like the product was hooked up in reverse, along with some excessive battery drain on the chassis battery. A quick search informed me what the product was, how it operates, and told me it was a possible device I may want to use in some applications. On the other hand I'm looking at possibly using a charging state monitoring battery combiner. They basically do the same, but allow much higher energy transfer rates between the batteries, and some of them will sense charging voltages on both sides, and combine the battery banks when they do. That would allow the house solar array to also charge the chassis starting battery, or the engine alternator to charge the house battery bank. All this assumes lead acid batteries throughout....

[/QUOTE]
Just curious; why is sound deadening so important to you that you are willing to go through so much effort and money?
I'm very hypersensitive to sounds.
 
#69 ·
I don't know if you guys have seen my thread.

http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/camper-vans-conversions/22513-meet-yellow-bird.html

I used MLV/closed cell foam combo on the entire floor after butyl tiles. Tiles everywhere else then Thinsulate 600.

I am very happy with the results, I can hold an easy conversation with rear passengers. Don't forget you need soft interior surfaces to absorb sounds.

Looks like some automotive foam is in my future. I am also adding insulated window covers.
 
#70 ·
I think my bed, upholstery, and ceiling will be the only cloth covered surfaces. I'd like to be able to easily clean all surfaces. Right now my thoughts for the ceiling are, listed bottom up.
  • Soft vinyl upholstery cloth
  • glue
  • 1/2" to 1" Aerocel EPDM Elastomeric Sheet Insulation foam (optional). I could just glue the fabric to the baltic birch plywood.
  • glue
  • 1/8" baltic birch plywood
  • 1/4" ribs on back of plywood, orientate ribs front to back to allow curving. Blocks where ceiling will be attached to roof ribs. The ribs are there to provide a gap for the reflective layer to work.
  • MLV, foil face down
  • glue
  • 2" Aerocel EPDM Elastomeric Sheet Insulation
  • glue
  • MLV, foil face up
  • VHB tape
  • CLD Strips
  • CLD Strips
  • CLD Strips
  • Roof sheet metal
Yeah, kinda like I was planning for the walls.

I'll be incorporating LED lighting into the ceiling.

I'm tempted to use clips to hold the ceiling up. I like the idea of a clip that fits into a open sided slot. If the slots face forward, pulling the ceiling back will release it, and it will drop. It would be easy to make the slots. I'm sure I could use some clip already found on Transits... I'll likely need to use more of them due to my heavier ceiling insulation. The alternative is to hang the ceiling with screws. I could hide them under the aluminum channels that hold the LED strip lighting.

This may be a better adhesive for vinyl and EDPM: 3M™ Rubber And Vinyl 80 Spray Adhesive
Part Number 82618, 3M ID 62499649556, 3M Product Number 80, UPC 00021200826184. It is specifically made for gluing rubber(EDPM and other types) and vinyl together, and has a 300F shear/peal failure temp.
 
#71 ·
OK, off on a tangent on how to hold a laminated sound deadening headliner up without visible fasteners. Having just read klp's Meet Yellow Bird build thread, one thing For did stood out and caught my attention. Ford's method of holding the headliner so it could be removed. It's simple and can be done by anybody. I'm just doing for myself, what Ford is doing.

So I went looking for suitable double headed pins for placing in a slot on the headliner, then pushing into a hole in a roof rib, and found many options. Some even look like they would work in holes in wood, others are Ford Transit parts. You can see the double headed pin, and slotted clip it fits into in KLP's headliner pics below. I could make my own versions of the slotted clips, and drill the holes into the ribs for the pins to insert into. I just need the double headed pin to hold the two together. I found many options. Lots of manufacturers like this attachment method. As klp says in his post, just push it a half inch and it should fall off. I think I'd use a longer slot, but not to long. I was thinking of making mine so if the headliner was pulled towards the back of the van it would fall off all the the double headed pins holding it up. To keep that from happening except when needed, at the back I would have a couple retaining screws buried under the trim molding. Once you remove them, the headliner can be slid back. Another advantage of this attachment method is there are no fasteners visible in the headliner. I really like that. I'll have to use more pins than Ford did because my headliner is heavier. I can do some destructive testing to gauge just how much the pins can hold.

Pics in klp's post of what Ford is using on the Transit.
http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/camper-vans-conversions/22513-meet-yellow-bird-10.html#post450554
<snip>
I took some pics of the headliner out, someone can gain from my mistakes! I broke 3 of 4 clips when I took it out, these I glued back on and suffered no ill effects. The headliner is back on and I hope it never needs to come off again.

Image


I think the proper way to remove it is to push the whole thing forward about 1/2", this would free the clip from the stud.

Image


The orange stud stays fixed in the ceiling. Because I glued them on and wanted a drama free install I removed all the studs and put the whole kit up in one shot.
<snip>

Some clips I found even say they are for the Transit, but not the headliner.
https://www.amazon.com/PartsSquare-Fastener-Retainer-Explorer-Transit/dp/B01B165Q28
https://www.amazon.com/20PCS-Bumper-Retainer-Rivet-Fastener/dp/B072HNBNCH

GM door panel clip, inserts into a 1/4" hole.
https://www.amazon.com/GM-Door-Panel-Clip-Qty/dp/B000NE7TJ8

This GM clip may be able to be inserted into a hole drilled into wood. Countersink bevel the edges and it would have more play for initial misalignment.
https://www.amazon.com/Front-Panel-Retainers-Replaces-10153057/dp/B0040CTYAQ

This Ford part also looks like it could bite into a wood hole.
https://www.amazon.com/Ford-Interior-Door-Panel-Clip/dp/B000NKU13S
Ford again
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Interior_Trim_Panel_Retainer_Ford_387477_S_p/a11797.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Ford_Trim_Panel_Retainer_p/a17075.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Ford_Weatherstrip_Clip_Dusk_Nylon_p/a20831.htm

http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Acura_Honda_Cowl_Vent_Retainer_p/a21059.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Nissan_Cowl_Vent_Retainer_13mm_Stm_Lgth_p/a20672.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Toyota_Door_Trim_Retainer_Corolla_67771_02030_p/a15709.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/GM_Trim_Panel_Retainer_Natural_Nylon_p/a17218.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Jeep_Chrysler_Trim_Panel_Retainer_p/a17669.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/GM_Door_Trim_Panel_Retainer_White_Nylon_p/a20338.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/GM_Ford_Amc_Trim_Panel_Retainer_p/a17102.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/GM_Trim_Panel_Retainer_p/a16938.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Trim_Panel_Retainer_GM_Chrysler_p/a11677.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Toyota_Door_Panel_Retainer_20_5mm_Length_p/a14270.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Nissan_Trim_Panel_Retainer_Fits_8mm_Hole_p/a19731.htm

Some have seals
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Chrysler_Push_Type_Retainer_With_Sealer_6509673AA_p/a21601.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Acura_Honda_Push_Type_Retainer_with_Sealer_p/a22068.htm
http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Acura_Honda_Push_Type_Clips_91512_SJK_003_p/a22069.htm

Looks like many manufacturers like that general style of double headed clip. Barely took any time to assemble the list above.
 
#72 ·
If you're making your headliner in large pieces, then you'd need numerous clips and retainers and I could see it being a nightmare to reinstall getting the retainers lined up. Maybe not if you have a helper. I don't.

For Ford's front headliner orange retainers, I pulled them straight out instead of pulling the headliner back. The pop out easily (for once). Because the headliner was still captured in the front by the dome light wiring harness. Since those weren't disconnected the headliner couldn't be pull back. One reason all this (usually) are coming off easily is that my Transit is new and the weather is still warm. They will all be breaking given a few years and if I was doing this in winter.

I like your detailed planning threads. For whatever neural wiring reason, I don't seem to be able to do the planning. I jump into the project with a vague plan that ends up changing and redoing the mistakes as I go.
 
#73 ·
I used 1/8" plywood to cover the deep openings below the window indents. Not recommended because it is not rigid enough. Bowed out between fasteners. I left it installed because it is hidden behind my bench seats.

Changed for the deep openings above the window indents. Used 7/32" plywood with 1/8" closed cell foam glued to plywood between the plywood and the Transit steel to reduce noise. Painted plywood same color as van. These panels are also mostly behind cabinets.

Ceiling details:

http://www.ortontransit.info/ceiling.php