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Warning about Brake Noise

19K views 17 replies 9 participants last post by  LeoRox  
#1 · (Edited)
About a month ago I had a brake job done in the van in anticipation of travelling this summer. My local Ford dealer replaced the brake pads, four rotors, and the rear calipers. I drove the van on a trip with my wife for a week and the van was fine.

Since that trip, because the Atlantic provinces have almost no active cases of Covid, the Atlantic bubble was formed, allowing nonessential travel across their adjoining provincial borders. My wife was back to work, so I decided to take a two and a half week trip to Newfoundland for some hiking and sightseeing. I had never been to St. John’s before.

While I was driving to the Newfoundland ferry the brakes started making noises (rattling and squeaking a bit). I caught the ferry and during the voyage I phoned a Newfoundland Ford dealer and asked if they could look into this. I told them that I was worried that the van might be unsafe. Bright and early the next morning their service manager agreed that the right front brake was making noise so they took off the front wheels and checked for problems. They could find nothing wrong and assured me the squeaking was just the new brake pads settling in. So I set out for St. John’s knowing that everything was safe, even though there was some squeaking.

For two weeks I had a great time hiking, canoeing, and visiting museums. The weather was surprisingly good (though maybe camping is just more pleasant in a van). Saturday I was on my way to four nights in Gros Morne National Park (and then back to the ferry), when the right rear axle just about came out:

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I was lucky that I wasn’t on one of the steep curved downhill sections, was travelling reasonably slowly, and was able to stop quickly. Otherwise at the very least I would have written off the van.

Ford Roadside Assistance towed the van to the same Newfoundland Ford dealer (though due to Covid, I had to arrange my own $140 taxi ride) and I spent two nights camping in the parking lot waiting for them to open. They told me that my local Ford dealer reused the old wheel hub bolts, which on this van are single use items and must be always replaced with new bolts.

The Newfoundland dealer replaced all the single use bolts (about 30 in total) on all four rotors, as well as the right rear axle, rotor etc. They billed my local Nova Scotia dealer.

Unfortunately it’s not just my local dealer who is at fault. On the second visit the Newfoundland dealer noticed that the right front rotor was not seated correctly and that there was run out. They fixed this as well, but I think that they should have noticed this on the first visit.

And when the Newfoundland dealer had the wheels off the first time, I think that the rusty single use bolts would have been staring them in the face. They didn’t flag this as a (dangerous) problem, even though I told both the service manager and the mechanic that the rotors had just been replaced.

Looks like I’m going to have to find someone else to service my van, but in my small town it will be tricky. Last year I asked around, but the local independent shops can’t (or won’t) handle something this big (and exotic). I used to do my own brakes and engine repairs when I was young, but I really don’t want to become a DIY mechanic again.

And maybe I should have gotten a second opinion in Newfoundland. But as my father used to say: should’ve, could’ve, would’ve.

I’m on the ferry back to Nova Scotia. The big change when I get back is that masks will be mandatory in Nova Scotia for shopping or any other sort of indoor activity (despite Nova Scotia having no active cases of Covid for a couple of weeks now).
 
#2 · (Edited)
Here’s the short version:

Ford Dealer A replaced 4 rotors but didn’t replace the single use wheel hub bolts.
Ford Dealer B was unable to diagnose the brake noise problem even though run out and rusted (thus reused) single use wheel hub bolts were staring them in the face.
Driver C was lucky something really bad didn’t happen.
Driver C can’t seem to find a capable shop to service his van.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Found it, More of the same.

 
#6 · (Edited)
I blame the Ford Engineer for their choice of the single-use bolt and lack of proper training for the mechanics ...
I notice that on the newer models the wheel hub design is different. I wonder if it still has single use bolts? If not, it would suggest that the older design was a poor choice, particularly for the North American market.
 
#7 ·
That's scary, glad you're ok. The hub bolts on our Transits are Torque to Yield bolts (TTY). You torque them to 22 ft lbs then turn them another 90 degrees, which nets you about 46-50 ft lbs of torque when its tightened up. It affords higher clamping pressures with lower torques for the newer and lighter alloys that everything is made of anymore (with a few other benefits too). The downside is, obviously, they're one time use and cost around $9 a pop to replace. Which is why a lot of shops try to reuse them. Along with the fact that these same shops are putting them back on with impact wrenches. There's a video floating around this forum somewhere that someone linked to where it shows a shop replace the rear breaks and he mentions briefly that they should be torqued to a specific number then 90 degrees but says he doesn't need to do that and torques them down with an impact wrench...made me cringe...and your outcome is the reason why. Once they have stretched during installation, they need to be replaced if ever removed. TTY bolts are a necessary evil with the way things are being designed and I doubt the newer models went away from the TTY hub bolts. TTY bolts are the wrong place to try to save a few bucks. The Ford dealer should have known better.
 
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#10 · (Edited)
That's scary, glad you're ok. The hub bolts on our Transits are Torque to Yield bolts (TTY). You torque them to 22 ft lbs then turn them another 90 degrees, which nets you about 46-50 ft lbs of torque when its tightened up. It affords higher clamping pressures with lower torques for the newer and lighter alloys that everything is made of anymore (with a few other benefits too). The downside is, obviously, they're one time use and cost around $9 a pop to replace. Which is why a lot of shops try to reuse them. Along with the fact that these same shops are putting them back on with impact wrenches. There's a video floating around this forum somewhere that someone linked to where it shows a shop replace the rear brakes and he mentions briefly that they should be torqued to a specific number then 90 degrees but says he doesn't need to do that and torques them down with an impact wrench...made me cringe...and your outcome is the reason why. Once they have stretched during installation, they need to be replaced if ever removed. TTY bolts are a necessary evil with the way things are being designed and I doubt the newer models went away from the TTY hub bolts. TTY bolts are the wrong place to try to save a few bucks. The Ford dealer should have known better.
Thanks. Before this incident I had only the vaguest idea that single use bolts were used on Transits. I trusted the two Ford dealers to insure that my brakes were safe.

I now suspect that many brake jobs are being done with reused bolts and impact wrenches. So why isn't everybody losing an axle? Maybe the mechanic I had was particularly bad. Maybe it's that I carry a fair bit of weight, or that the highways here have lots of potholes and curves. Or a combination of factors. Who knows.

My intent with this thread is to warn others that brake noise on a Transit may be unusually dangerous.

Cheers.
 
#8 · (Edited)
This post got me thinking... since I had rear pads and rotors done on warranty in 2018 (part of the 2015, reversed brackets TSB fix).

"I wonder, did they use replacement TTY bolts, as called for?"

Some may have seen my recent post elsewhere, about the rear pads having been switched, inner-to-outer, on this 2018 job. That caused uneven wear on the inner pads, leaving about 1mm at one end, and 4mm at the other end. I noticed this when putting on my 3rd set of rear pads (no new rotors), at 70K miles (ceramic, this time). So, right off the bat, I know the dealer tech was not fully on the ball.

I just pulled out the invoice for the job. Line items for the brake work includes:

1) BRF*1504* kit - brake lining
2) CK4Z*2C026*C rotor asy - brake
3) XY*75W140*QL oil - rear axle

Oddly, no quantity of each, shown. (And, I do know from reading here, that the job can be done with no loss of diff fluid.) BUT, the KEY thing, here, is that no bolts or bolt kits are listed. I looked up the rotor "assembly" code, and, it shows no bolts, or anything other than the rotor.

What do you say? Can I reasonably conclude that the bolts were not replaced? What chance would you give me, of having the bolts replaced at no charge, 2+ years after the work was done?

I'm due for a replacement flex coupler (aka giubo) in about 4K miles. I could bring it up to the service department, then, and maybe they'd be more willing to correct the past work?

While I'm posting to this thread, may as well link to the other thread, where someone had the axle come out: Ever see this?
 
#9 · (Edited)
This post got me thinking... since I had rear pads and rotors done on warranty in 2018 (part of the 2015, reversed brackets TSB fix).

"I wonder, did they use replacement TTY bolts, as called for?" ... I just pulled out the invoice for the job. Line items for the brake work includes:

1) BRF*1504* kit - brake lining
2) CK4Z*2C026*C rotor asy - brake
3) XY*75W140*QL oil - rear axle

Oddly, no quantity of each, shown. (And, I do know from reading here, that the job can be done with no loss of diff fluid.) BUT, the KEY thing, here, is that no bolts or bolt kits are listed. I looked up the rotor "assembly" code, and, it shows no bolts, or anything other than the rotor.

What do you say? Can I reasonably conclude that the bolts were not replaced? What chance would you give me, of having the bolts replaced at no charge, 2+ years after the work was done? ...
The general manager of the second shop wanted to see the invoice from the first shop to verify that all 4 rotors had been replaced and that the single use bolts weren't on the invoice (and hence hadn't been replaced). When I showed him the invoice I suddenly had maximum cooperation from his shop (and he contacted the first shop and arranged for them to pay for everything). The invoice from the second shop listed the bolts.

I think that anyone who has had a brake job and not been billed for the single use bolts should contact Ford and see if that creates some cooperation in getting the job redone correctly. The service manual provides no options, the bolts must be replaced. One shouldn't have to have the axle come out for this to happen.

Good luck. Please let us know how this works out for you.
 
#14 ·
Yes the holder has to be removed, then ,the caliper is removed from the holder these bolts are not TTY but a much higher torque (up to 300lb/ft) The TTY bolts are the ones holding rotor to axle and axle to hub (2 sets of 5). On the Transit the engineers who designed the drive train must have had a collective "brain cramp" as they though it would be a good idea to place the rotor on the inside of the hub therefore forcing the extraction of the whole axle every time you need access to the rotor or bearings.( Normally rotors are just pinched between the rim and hub, with maybe a single retainer screw ).
The way the TTY bolt work is a bit like using lock washers, the proper torque on the bolt stretch it and gives it a"spring" that prevent it to come undone under load.( in addition to the blue Loctite the bolt come with) Once you back the bolt off, IT'S DEAD! The springiness is gone! In a proper shop it will be trashed immediately to avoid confusion latter. I was recently at a Midas shop for a rear brake job and while waiting for the parts (They don't stock Transit pads) I watched the tech work on a BMW and reuse every single used bolt, no new Loctite. The guy was using a cordless screw gun and when I asked him if he was going to put a torque wrench to any of the bolts he told me the tool was " pre-set". I politely asked him to" Please put the wheels back on my van and back it of the lift". I got in it and drove off as fast as I could.
BTW another thing that needs replacing: There are 2 spring clips that hold each pads in place in the caliper while you reinstall it in the holder. They are normally provided with the pads kit. make sure they get replaced!
My personal approach to brakes and wheels: If there is a bolt or nut,REPLACE and TORQUE it, for the sake of the "nut behind the wheel"
 
#16 ·
Wow thank you so much for posting this. I have a long time, trusted mechanic, but when it comes time for my brakes being worked on I'll make sure he knows about all this. BTW, someone mentioned that "later" models might not have these TTY bolts. Is that true and if so, what year was that changed?