[NealCarney]

Not sure if there are any other factors they built into the logic, but the low voltage conditions and the timer after engine-off seem like the two main triggers; I don't recall anything else. At the end of the day, they let you pull 60A from CCP1 without any load shed protection, so I think the bottom line is don't do anything silly that is going to drain the start batteries. It's just a nice extra layer of protection in case you inadvertently do something that's causing a big drain.

 

[BadWolf]

If i had to guess it was designed for people connecting AGM house batteries directly to CCP2, its a VSR with a few extra triggers.

The one situation that i could see it being needed with LifePo4 house batteries is the single alternator setup, and the alternator shut off to cool down. It would give the alternator more time to cool off, since each battery might give an hour (with out AC or load)

 

[ranxerox]

All I can speak for are the 2015 to 2019 transit's. There was not any load shedding on the three (3) 60 amp CCPs that came with the 250 amp alternator option, The 150 amp alternator was standard equipment on those early model transit's and it came with a single 60 amp CCP.
The 2/0 battery positive cable that ran from the transit battery to the under hood battery jump off stud was fused with a single 525 amp fuse, Two positive cables at the jump-off stud split off with one cable going to the starter motor and the other cable going to the alternator. The alternator cable had a donut shaped hall-effect sensor to monitor alternator output amperage.
At the transit battery there was only one sensor and I believe that reads battery voltage.

There is a SVE Bulletin that encourages direct connection to the transit battery if you needed more the 180 amps on those early model transit's.

Since there was no load shedding on those early model transit's some people purchased and installed Automatic Charge Relays (ACRs) to protect the transit battery from over discharge.

Here is a wiring diagram for the early model transit's, It shows the hall-effect sensor on the alternator output cable.
You can also see were the battery cable splits at the under hood battery jump-off stud. (S100)

 

[BadWolf]

@ranxerox you sent me down a ford parts rabbit hole, lol. I liked the idea a pre cut/crimped oem 2/0 cable that might have been worth the extra money.

From what i can find the starter/primary battery cable hasn't changed on the gas models. CK4Z14300L is the part number and its 105C 1/0awg. They run a separate 1/0awg for the second alternator, so no need to change i guess.

ACR/VSR are almost identical, ACR sometimes come with adjustable settings or even bluetooth. Normally they just have a shut off voltage and restart voltage. They are for AGM<>AGM since they don't have/need current limiting, a lot of RV makers used them since most RV had 1-2 AGM mainly as buffers in between hookups.

The CL12-100/200 is the only current limiting(needed for LifePo4) battery to battery that i know of, i feel it has a ton of untapped potential. I'm guessing it might be a headache product on their end, since you need an alternator that can have a sustained output over 14.5v, where the Orions can bump up the voltage when needed. Vanlife outfitters took their CL12+Orion guide down, i apparently wasn't the only having issues.

Battleborn has the Li-BIM, and claim is for LifePo4, but its just a ACR with a 15 on/35off timer. It will max out what ever the alternator can put out, they rated it for 1,200amps. Wakespeed limits the current by controlling the alternator output.

 

[ranxerox]

I am just going by past comments on this forum, For the early model gas transit's everybody agreed that it was 2/0 for the battery cable running from the battery to the engine compartment.
There was no way to be sure on this because ford gave the cables some kind of metric sizing no one understood at the time.

 

[BadWolf]

wrong thread

 

[BadWolf]

Well with a new battery i picked up another 6 amps at start up. New personal best at 141amps or 1.9kw.

It leveled off at 125a. On my ultragauge i am seeing 14.4v now at idle with the new battery instead of the 14.1-14.2v before. Haven’t swapped the starter wiring, from oem to equal yet.

If i raise the RPM then i can take it from ~126a up to ~136a. So 125a might be max at idle.

I just want to see 2kw lol.

 

[NealCarney]

Well with a new battery i picked up another 6 amps at start up. New personal best at 141amps or 1.9kw.

It leveled off at 125a. On my ultragauge i am seeing 14.4v now at idle with the new battery instead of the 14.1-14.2v before. Haven’t swapped the starter wiring, from oem to equal yet.

If i raise the RPM then i can take it from ~126a up to ~136a. So 125a might be max at idle.

I just want to see 2kw lol.

That's good news with the new battery setup. If you want to see 2kW, try putting a load on the inverter and see if that pushes you up to the max.

 

[BadWolf]

@NealCarney i got my replacement CL12 to test and it was 15A less output and was hot after 10 minutes. Did not expect that.

I used the same connectors/fuse/bms cable. Just swapped the CL

new cl12
100a fuse - 69A
125a fuse - 79A (changing from 100-125a setting had no impact)

put old one back in (VicAlt)
125a fuse - 95A
The old one even had a 0.3v lower input voltage.

 

[NealCarney]

That's weird. Remind me again what is/was the issue with the old one? Seems like if it's putting out 95A its working pretty well.

 

[BadWolf]

They sent me a replacement to test mainly due to the throttling but they also said it should start at 100a.

The second one did see less voltage difference on the input(starter vs cl12 readings). ~0.15v vs ~0.25v

I think a healthy consistent input is the most impactful with these current limiters.
Rewiring helped, the new battery improved it more(even wired oem) and new battery with equal wiring helped the most, in preventing the throttling.

Even after moving the ground, 125A seems to be the idle limit, so im guessing each red light the batteries are aiding. RPM change with just the CL12 has no effect.

 

[BadWolf]

I found in the Euro 2022.5 BEMM that they added the engine RPM to the alternator graph, and helps explain why at idle i'm seeing 110a at traffic lights(at night) and upto 135a off the primary line when parked with start/stop off. I'm starting to think high power mode isn't working with pin 1/3 jumpered.

With that graph ford is showing a 2.7x rpm speed for the alternator compared to engine RPM. I marked my ~650 rpm idle.

So at idle each alternator should put out:
~115a when hot
to
~155a when cold

With Ford wanting 20a for engine running (nothing else on), using max temp, at idle 220a should be possible, with dual alt. (assuming 100% duty cycle). With 1,100rpm high idle, it should be around 310a.

I still have the second CL 12/100, they still haven't sent me a return label or reached out.

 

[NealCarney]

I still have the second CL 12/100, they still haven't sent me a return label or reached out.

Give it a try! Would be interesting to compare notes.

The 2.7 factor is in the US BEMM on the torque curve page, but for some reason they don't incorporate it in the chart nicely like the Euro one you showed.

 

[BadWolf]

Give it a try! Would be interesting to compare notes.

If i had another modified M8 cable, i probably would have already tried.

I do have a spare 4 awg 105C (160a rated) already ran under the passenger seat to the rear power bank. The 50A didn't need both grounds. (just the chassis) I could test the second with an 80a fuse/60a output mode first, and which would max out ccp2.

I could potentially run both with the oem 100a fuse/90a output mode but might be rolling the dice on the ccp2 175a fuse. Was seeing ~80a out of one, and ~70a out of the other, with the 100a fuse.

Parts to make the cable should be here Wednesday. Ordered the DIY ends incase i have to send it back.

 

[NealCarney]

I think you'll be fine running them full bore with the 175A. Based on my experience I don't think you will get that high, but I sure hope you do. If it looks like it's getting close you can always stop and swap out. If you're only slightly over the mega fuse should allow quite a bit of time before blowing.

 

[BadWolf]

I never thought I'd say this, but if this works, then I'll need to add a third 5kw battery. (I did build my cabinet for a third down the road)

When the MPPT is running with good solar (700w or more), I'm already close to my 200a max continuous charge rate. My batteries each have a 100a continuous charge limit.

Currently:
50A DC - 48A
CL12 - 87A
MPPT - ~40A average (with a northern tilt, but could see another 18A with southern tilt)

So during the day, that puts me around 175a with the potential to see ~195a.

If i still get 70a out of the second cl12 when in tandem, ill have to turn off my 50A DC charge during the day. When its getting power from the panels I could wire the relay on the mppt, to turn off the dc charger.

 

[BadWolf]

Well amazon sent me the wrong connectors (4 pin), but found a Victron dealer in town that i'm going to pick up the M8 cables and some 125A/32v victron fuses. (a 5 pack of 32v is half the price of one 58v)

Figure i haven't tested that fuse, and to be able to test the same fuse in each would be better.

I did tests putting the BOJACK 125A mega in again, now that everything else is fixed, and its ~80a output at start and throttled down to ~65a. Which is between 250-300w less than the 58v fuse, basically the out put of a Orion 12/12-30 lol.

 

[BadWolf]

The dealership didn’t have the bms recalibrate with the new battery. I did yesterday which might be causing it to throttle more.

Picked up the pair of m8 cables, and 5x victron 125a/32v fuses. Resistors are now running late.

I swapped the 58v fuse for a 32v fuse. With the 50a dc off, the CL12 is starting at 102a and leveling off at 98a. It does throttle down to 80a at lights. (58v stayed at 85a at lights by itself)

Sadly with the 50a dc on, (supplying a steady 48a) im only seeing 125a total, and the CL12 is a 95%. At stop lights it throttles down to 50%. (~100a total)

Summary
Better solo outputs but throttles more.
Worse output with 50a and throttles more.

i am at 13.24v/97% soc right now, so im going to try again at a lower voltage/soc. Its a bit comical that im have to waste power now to test it.

 

[BadWolf]

I'm about ready to Office Space this CL12...

Turned off my solar/50a DC, and let the SOC get down to 80%.

Parked at idle:
CL12 - At start - 107.5a - 100% Charge Current (1,450w)
CL12 - After 10 minutes - 99.8a - 100% Charge Current (1,360w)
CL12 + 50A(48A indicated) - 94.8a - 61% Charge Current (1,290w)

Parked at 2k rpm
CL12 - 99.8a - 100% Charge Current (1,360w)
CL12 + 50a(48A indicated) - 119.3a - 85% Charge Current (1,630w)

So i know the CL12 can run the full 100a now, but doesn't play well with others. What's crazy to watch is when i turn on the 50A charger, the shunt current doesn't change, but the CL12 Charge Current lowers in tandem to the 50a getting to max power.

I'm beginning to think the bad battery had disable SRC. Its clear the dealer didn't have the van BMS recalibrate, since when i did it with ForScan, my voltage output instantly changed to match SRC. My auto start/stop hasn't triggered since last summer, but kept engaging at lights today. Also, right before it would start/stop, i'd see the CL12 throttle down the Charge Current. When the charge current hit 30% or less the van would shut off. (ordered a 4D cable to disable start/stop for good)

Testing tomorrow:
Try dual with one sensor in ForScan (currently on single)
Jumping pins 1/3 to switch to possibly disable SRC
Swapping 0.5a to 0.25a fuse on ground wire
Running second CL12 with 125a/32v fuse
Running both CL12, but second won't have 56k resistors in M8 cable

If i can disable SRC, and the CL12 stays at 100% i could see 2kw.

 

[NealCarney]

I'm about ready to Office Space this CL12...

Turned off my solar/50a DC, and let the SOC get down to 80%.

Parked at idle:
CL12 - At start - 107.5a - 100% Charge Current (1,450w)
CL12 - After 10 minutes - 99.8a - 100% Charge Current (1,360w)
CL12 + 50A(48A indicated) - 94.8a - 61% Charge Current (1,290w)

Parked at 2k rpm
CL12 - 99.8a - 100% Charge Current (1,360w)
CL12 + 50a(48A indicated) - 119.3a - 85% Charge Current (1,630w)

So i know the CL12 can run the full 100a now, but doesn't play well with others. What's crazy to watch is when i turn on the 50A charger, the shunt current doesn't change, but the CL12 Charge Current lowers in tandem to the 50a getting to max power.

I'm beginning to think the bad battery had disable SRC. Its clear the dealer didn't have the van BMS recalibrate, since when i did it with ForScan, my voltage output instantly changed to match SRC. My auto start/stop hasn't triggered since last summer, but kept engaging at lights today. Also, right before it would start/stop, i'd see the CL12 throttle down the Charge Current. When the charge current hit 30% or less the van would shut off. (ordered a 4D cable to disable start/stop for good)

Testing tomorrow:
Try dual with one sensor in ForScan (currently on single)
Jumping pins 1/3 to switch to possibly disable SRC
Swapping 0.5a to 0.25a fuse on ground wire
Running second CL12 with 125a/32v fuse
Running both CL12, but second won't have 56k resistors in M8 cable

If i can disable SRC, and the CL12 stays at 100% i could see 2kw.

It may be a similar experience as mine. With one CL I get 100% (doesn't matter which one). With two, I get 100% from one and 50% from the other (roughly). Just doesn't seem to parallel very well for some reason. I posted a question about parallel CL on the Victron community a long time ago but never received a reply.