[gregoryx]

Imo the ford wiring is good in all but one spot, which is 1awg from the power board to positive on the battery. (Rated for 120a) Which could be upgraded (bolted connection below fuses). 250A was the smallest fuse coming from the motor i could see)
...

I'm pretty sure we had a report of someone with the main wire from the alternator back to that panel melted from running over 200A. Maybe a year ago? I guess I should have saved the post. Basically, I don't think that 250A fuse means that the line from alternator back can handle 250A sustained.

 

[BadWolf]

I'm pretty sure we had a report of someone with the main wire from the alternator back to that panel melted from running over 200A. Maybe a year ago? I guess I should have saved the post. Basically, I don't think that 250A fuse means that the line from alternator back can handle 250A sustained.

I'm not surprised, even with 75C 2/0 wire (think is what Ford used) is only rated for 175a max continuous. If i had to guess the 300a fuse is the primary alternator, and the 250a fuse is the secondary, with the 500a fuse going to the starter. Maybe someone knows for sure. Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

With dual alternators, figure 80amps for for the van and keeping the alternators under 50% duty cycle. It only leaves you ~170a/2.3kw max. Which i figure is ~150a/2kw into the batteries after efficiency loss.

I think the following chart is limited by the 1awg going to the batteries, from the power board. When i had my 24v Signeer setup(~60a/1,600w max charge), with the DC-AC-DC/2200w invertor, i was pulling ~150a/2kw off CCP2 with out it cycling the alternators to cool off.

 

[gregoryx]

I'm not surprised, even with 75C 2/0 wire (think is what Ford used) is only rated for 175a max continuous. If i had to guess the 300a fuse is the primary alternator, and the 250a fuse is the secondary, with the 500a fuse going to the starter. Maybe someone knows for sure. Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

With dual alternators, figure 80amps for for the van and keeping the alternators under 50% duty cycle. It only leaves you ~170a/2.3kw max. Which i figure is ~150a/2kw into the batteries after efficiency loss.

I think the following chart is limited by the 1awg going to the batteries, from the power board. When i had my 24v Signeer setup(~60a/1,600w max charge), with the DC-AC-DC/2200w invertor, i was pulling ~150a/2kw off CCP2 with out it cycling the alternators to cool off.
View attachment 207593

TFPU. I forgot that it had the details for duration... and I've pulled 150A without cut-out as well, so... 🤔

Not sure (nor concerned) about which fuse is which; but pretty sure it's one wire coming to the panel from both alternators. Though I'd like to be wrong about that.

 

[NealCarney]

I'm not surprised, even with 75C 2/0 wire (think is what Ford used) is only rated for 175a max continuous. If i had to guess the 300a fuse is the primary alternator, and the 250a fuse is the secondary, with the 500a fuse going to the starter. Maybe someone knows for sure. Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

With dual alternators, figure 80amps for for the van and keeping the alternators under 50% duty cycle. It only leaves you ~170a/2.3kw max. Which i figure is ~150a/2kw into the batteries after efficiency loss.

I think the following chart is limited by the 1awg going to the batteries, from the power board. When i had my 24v Signeer setup(~60a/1,600w max charge), with the DC-AC-DC/2200w invertor, i was pulling ~150a/2kw off CCP2 with out it cycling the alternators to cool off.
View attachment 207593

The 500A fuse is for both the primary alternator and starter, 300A fuse is for the fuse box in the engine compartment, and 250A fuse is for the secondary alternator; see snippet from wiring diagram below. The wiring manual lists both alternator wires as 1/0 going from driver seat to engine compartment. The Ford wiring info specifies that engine compartment wires have to be rated for 105C, so presumably theirs are, but IIRC all their cables are unmarked so difficult to tell. I think with 1/0 105C it might be able to handle around 175A per alternator. Presumably once you start trying to draw 150A+ for the house, on top of normal vehicle loads, then the second alternator will have started to kick in. So maybe the wire size to each alternator is ok. As you noted, the weak link is the 1AWG wire to the batteries...and the crazy thing is that is where they tell you to connect in the event you want more than 175A!

 

[BadWolf]

@NealCarney thanks for that info. Also I swapped the CL12 Ground fuse from a 1a to 0.5a and picked up 2 more amps. Seeing 97a on start, and levels out at 92a.

I was able to find a 110C temp chart for both copper/alum. I whited out the Free Air numbers since those don't apply

The wires off the alternators are rated for ~ 75% output. When i get the 50a DC-DC I'll throw the clamp meter on the cables from the motor since i have to pull the middle cover anyway. It will be interesting to see where the current is coming from and I'll test the 1 awg on the battery. At least they didn't weld the battery 1awg cable like the fuses next to it. I have spare 105c 1/0 that i might order a battery terminal end and upgrade mine, if its pulling the 150a through it.

 

[NealCarney]

@NealCarney thanks for that info. Also I swapped the CL12 Ground fuse from a 1a to 0.5a and picked up 2 more amps. Seeing 97a on start, and levels out at 92a.

I was able to find a 110C temp chart for both copper/alum. I whited out the Free Air numbers since those don't apply

The wires off the alternators are rated for ~ 75% output. When i get the 50a DC-DC I'll throw the clamp meter on the cables from the motor since i have to pull the middle cover anyway. It will be interesting to see where the current is coming from and I'll test the 1 awg on the battery. At least they didn't weld the battery 1awg cable like the fuses next to it. I have spare 105c 1/0 that i might order a battery terminal end and upgrade mine, if its pulling the 150a through it.

I installed a cheap hall effect meter on the secondary alternator cable in the battery box so that I could observe when it was kicking in. See this post. It takes pretty heavy loads at idle to start. I stopped looking at it because it was rarely active. Probably a good idea to install one on both cables to see how much current each 1/0 wire is carrying. I think the wires need to be derated both due to bundling and the engine compartment heat, although the bundled segment may not be very long.

If you're connected to CCP2 and only charging on engine run, it doesn't seem like you would be affected by the size of the battery cable. Wouldn't the current pathway go from the alternator cable -> 500A fuse -> Ford bus bar -> Ford relay -> 175A fuse -> copper bar to CCP2 (you can see it really well in your picture)?

I do have one of my chargers connected to the battery cable, with the other one on CCP2. Each one only draws 100A max so I'm ok. But not a bad idea to upsize the battery cable.

I don't believe I have a ground fuse on my CL12. Did it come with your unit or is that something you added?

EDIT: added hall effect pic below

 

[BadWolf]

I did see in your other thread you added the sensor. I’ll test out if the forscan settings have any effect too. (Single/dual one sensor) Maybe dual batteries acts differently?

I figured ill test shutting off the motor a couple of times to see it on the start To stimulate start/stop.
You have to add the fuse, and the CL manual list it as a .3ma fuse for basic operations. Upto a 1.5a when using alarm and shut off features. Its shown in the diagram in the manual as well.

 

[BadWolf]

I popped the center plastic cover and threw the clamp meter on the 4 wires (3 red/1 black) plus my bus ground.

Van is up to temp, House Battery at 80%/2kw free. Motor is showing 14.72v on my ultragauge.

	5 Minutes	10 Minutes	10 Minutes + Max AC	15 Minutes - CL12 Off
Driver Side Red- Starter/Primary	150A right after start, and leveled off at 120A	110A	130A	20A
Middle Red - Engine	20A	10A	46A	10A
Passenger Side Red - Secondary	0A	0A	8A	0A
Battery Ground to Engine	0A	1A	0A	1A
Rear Battery Bus Bar Ground	Started at 97A and leveled off at 89A	89A	89A	0A

These were taken while parked so i'm sure the motor draw would increase while driving.

I'll run this test again when i connect the 50A charger tomorrow, and i'll get the battery 1 awg cable readings as well.

The AC on max looks to pull 35A/500w on startup, and the second alternator started helping above a 120a draw. Which might be the reason for the 120a continuous output limit on the BEMM chart. (Which is just below 50% duty cycle for it) Does that chart say its for single or dual alternators?

The Primary 1/0 was warm to the touch by the end.

 

[NealCarney]

Nice test. It does seem like the second alternator kicks in somewhere around 125A at idle. I think when you are under way, it takes a lot more load or heat for the second one to kick in. I think I'd prefer if it just automatically kicked in the second once the first gets to 100-125A so that the current is spread more evenly between the two alternators and those 1/0 wires don't get as warm.

Good luck getting the 50A setup tomorrow; very exciting.

 

[BadWolf]

Got the Rich Solar (SRNE rebrand) MPPT50DC today. Its smaller than my Victron 150/60 MPPT.

Because it has reverse charging i couldn’t connect it to ccp2 with the CL12. I figure 99% of the time I won’t use that feature since i have trickle charging from my multiplus but wanted it wired just in case. So I connected it to the power board with the battery jumper, so I don’t put a load on that wire for no reason.

The Dc-Dc app works well, wish it had a shut off in it(has a jumper on it you can pull), and it resets settings after firmware updates. I did have to do user defined settings since it locks Boost(absorption) with the LifePo4 settings.

During all my testing it put out a constant ~680w and took in 730w (50w loss). It didn’t care what the starter voltage was.

The CL12 ran 100% with the DC on, it did throttle down a little bit to ~86a. So im getting a healthy 1.8kw/135a to my battery bank.

Cost for both with wiring/fuses is ~$525.
CL12 + 125a 58v fuse - $200
DcDc + 2 breakers - $225
Wire/connectors - ~$100

Power off the van	AC off 14.3v off motor	Max AC - 14.1v off motor
Primary/Starter	132	125
Secondary	27	47
Engine	-11	-52
Starter Hot	1	1
Starter Ground	1	1
Shunt	129	119 (CL12 dropped to 90%)

It looks like it tries to limit the primary to 125A.

 

[NealCarney]

Nice job. For whatever reason, my units seem to like charging at combined 135A as well. I like the way you wired the cable on top of the battery jumper; I may do that next time I pull the seat.

 

[BadWolf]

The Mppt50Dc pulls ~2w when not running, and bluetooth stays on. One thing I figured out is even though it tells you to wire it isolated, it’s really a non-isolated charger.

I have an email in to their tech support about the ground. It does work with either alt/bat ground, but want to be sure. Or which ground is preferred.

With both grounds connected, i see ~38a off the 50a charger and the rest off my bus ground. When just the CL12 is running ~15a are going through the 50a charger ground.

After i used the battery lug for the 50a i also moved my trickle and shunt aux connection to the ccp2 relay bolt.

31 mile/45min drive this morning raised my SoC from 71 to 86%, which is about 1.5kw. My mppt was about 300w of it.

 

[BadWolf]

Van is still in the shop, waiting on the another rear view camera, the first one didn't work. (guessing its because my IPM-B is bad)

On the battery issue, they said they were checking a battery module, but thats all they said.

I've been going threw the BEMM just in case i have issues with the dealer, and figured out that the 120a continuous current limit/time chart is for vans with FPBG (battery guard) But it was a special option, that you can't get with dual alternators, 150w or 400w inverters and removes both CCPs since it give you a different connection point on the manual parking brake. So in my 22 model BEMM pages 98-105 are throw away pages for FPBG. The FPBG wiring diagram on page 98 doesn't show the CCP connections or relay either.

On page 89 it has the wiring diagram for "Third Party Battery Install" which the CCP2 relay is wired differently, and best of all the Aux battery is wired correctly in parallel directly to the Fuse box. It also says for loads between 175a and 240a to wire to the second battery, as do multiple other diagrams. (L is the fuse connection to third party batteries.) Anything labeled "Converter" is their word for up-fitter or in our case DIYer.

So my take from digging through this all again, is with dual batteries/alternators we are good for loads upto 240a, and to connect the load directly to the 2nd battery terminal. So a sterling 1212200 should work off the second battery, not that i would want to pull that much power through the 1 awg battery wire.

 

[NealCarney]

Van is still in the shop, waiting on the another rear view camera, the first one didn't work. (guessing it because my IPM-B is bad)

On the battery issue, they said they were checking a battery module, but thats all they said.

I've been going threw the BEMM just in case i have issues with the dealer, and figured out that the 120a continuous current limit/time chart is for vans with FPBG (battery guard) But it was a speical option, that you can't get with dual alternators, 150w or 400w inverters and removes both CCPs since it give you a different connection point on the manual parking brake. So in my 22 model BEMM pages 98-105 are throw away pages for FPBG. The FPBG wiring diagram on page 98 doesn't show the CCP connections or relay either.

View attachment 207876

On page 89 it has the wiring diagram for "Third Party Battery Install" which the CCP2 relay is wired differently, and best of all the Aux battery is wired correctly in parallel directly to the Fuse box. It also says for loads between 175a and 240a to wire to the second battery, as do multiple other diagrams. (L is the fuse connection to third party batteries.) Anything labeled "Converter" is their word for up-fitter or in our case DIYer.

View attachment 207877
View attachment 207878

So my take from digging through this all again, is with dual batteries/alternators we are good for loads upto 240a, and to connect the load directly to the 2nd battery terminal. So a sterling 1212200 should work off the second battery, not that i would want to pull that much power through the 1 awg battery wire.

Agree on all points. I was going to mention that your previous chart was from FPBG section, but didn't want to go down that rabbit hole since BEMM is so confusing. Theoretically connecting 200A to the stud on the battery terminal should be ok, since 1 AWG 105C is rated for 245A according to Blue Sea, and it's a short run. I connected one of my cables to the battery and the problem I ran into was that the 1/0 lug was slightly too wide in relation small amount of space available on the connector. In the first picture below, you've got to attach your lug to the #4 stud, which you can see is pretty tight. I think I ended up needing to chamfer one or both of the bottom edges of the lug 45° to get it to fit. I can't find picture of everything connected, but second pic shows the basic layout. While this was the Ford-recommended way to connect, I think you're better off figuring a way to connect directly to the Ford bus bar, probably on top of the battery cable like you did.

 

[BadWolf]

I found another wire calculator that goes to 105c and has the engine compartment reduction. Which i like to enable to give more buffer. If you lower the voltage drop to 2% @ 250a it bumps it up to 1/0 at 1ft, or 2/0 for engine compartment.

ABYC Wire Size Calculator

boathowto.com

With as warm as the 1/0 from the motor is getting at 130a after 15 minutes, id upgrade the starter wire if I connected directly to the battery. I’m sure at some point im going to get the itch to upgrade the primary wire from the motor too. 2/0 would be at 50% capacity at 130a

 

[chicagoandy]

So my take from digging through this all again, is with dual batteries/alternators we are good for loads upto 240a, and to connect the load directly to the 2nd battery terminal. So a sterling 1212200 should work off the second battery, not that i would want to pull that much power through the 1 awg battery wire.

Don't forget Page 92: "For loads greater than 175A (CCP2) or 200A (FPBG), up to 240A can be connected from the battery cable for short term use, less than 2 minutes."

 

[BadWolf]

On the 22 model year page 89, list that the short term 240a limit is with just dual batteries and with the engine off.

On the same page, with engine on it list single alternator with dual battery and twin alternators options. Which if i had a single alternator, the 240a for two minutes makes sense. The max current rate for a 1 AWG 105C wire is 245a, which is what is used for the battery connections and for exceeding 175A it says to connect to the positive terminal of the second battery. In testing when parked at idle, the secondary alternator starts making power above ~125a output/load and even at half output the 1/0awg wire is warm to the touch. (105C 1/0awg in an engine compartment is rated for 245a.)

If you go into the alternator section, using worst case temperature on the 250a alternator power curve 2,000 rpm is 130a output with a single alternator, so with dual i should be making 260a at highway speeds.
it also notes this 3 different times :

The entire document is vague at best when it comes to dual alternator output, which seems to be a CYA on Fords part. If i upgrade in the future to pull more than 150a, i will upgrade the battery cables from 1 awg to 2/0, and the primary/starter cable to at least 2/0.

 

[BadWolf]

I've been going back and forth with Victron on the CL12 output/throttling. They sent me another CL12 to test, its also a HW v2 that requires resistor, they didn't have any v1 left. Hoping i'll get the van back tomorrow, to swap this out, too bad i don't have another M8/56k resistor cable, to test them in tandem. Or if i get lucky and don't need to return the old one. 🤞

@NealCarney One thing i've been thinking about is what if you deleted the CCP2 relay(might throw error code) put a 2/0 jumper in it place and swapped the 175a mega and put in a 225a, then connected both CL12 to CCP2 (or by pass CCP2 lug completely). https://a.co/d/jc5vw13 I'll test unplugging the relay when i rewire the batteries back to equal load. (put them to oem for the dealer) The relay is there to protect discharging the batteries too low, but the voltage sense does that on the CL12.

 

[NealCarney]

I've been going back and forth with Victron on the CL12 output/throttling. They sent me another CL12 to test, its also a HW v2 that requires resistor, they didn't have any v1 left. Hoping i'll get the van back tomorrow, to swap this out, too bad i don't have another M8/56k resistor cable, to test them in tandem. Or if i get lucky and don't need to return the old one. 🤞

@NealCarney One thing i've been thinking about is what if you deleted the CCP2 relay(might throw error code) put a 2/0 jumper in it place and swapped the 175a mega and put in a 225a, then connected both CL12 to CCP2 (or by pass CCP2 lug completely). https://a.co/d/jc5vw13 I'll test unplugging the relay when i rewire the batteries back to equal load. (put them to oem for the dealer) The relay is there to protect discharging the batteries too low, but the voltage sense does that on the CL12.

I think @gregoryx had to temporarily remove the CCP2 relay and I don't recall him saying it threw an error code. Yes, I think once you're comfortable working on the Transit, the best thing to do is what you recommend. Remove the relay, replace with a jumper, put in a bigger fuse, connect to modified CCP2, and make sure you have load shed protection one way or another.

In terms of load shed on my direct connection, I've got several different protection layers. One is the CL low voltage cutoff that you mention. But I use the remote on/off feature of my CL12s which I activate (along with TPHPM) with a series of relays. The power for the first relay comes from the upfitter switch (which is a load-shed protected circuit) and the ground is the engine run signal. So the relay won't close unless 1) I have the switch turned on, 2) the engine is running and 3) there is no load shed condition. Then the second relay automatically turns on TPHPM by grounding that wire, as long as the relay is getting power from the first. And third relay is for second CL12. Works really well, and I like the ability to turn each CL12 on/off as desired.

Back to the CCP2 wiring, if I had to start over and kept the same configuration, I would probably follow your recommendation. Instead of running two 1/0 cables from the front to rear, I would have just run a single larger cable capable of 200A, connected to the modified CCP2 in the front, and then split near the CL12s in the rear. The next time I have the seat off, I'll consider if I want to move things around, but seems to be working ok for now. It would be nice to monitor the temperature of that battery cable; I'll have to see if I can feel it through the ventilation slots in the seat pedestal, or shoot it with an IR gun.

I saw your other posts helping out @ccrowley96 regarding his Orion install. I was going to recommend that he consider tapping into C-33E along with a relay setup similar to mine, but did not want to confuse the situation. I ran mine from the 43 pin connector which he would not have, but no problem running everything from C-33E under the seat. The engine run and TPHPM signals are both there, and the +12V pin on the connector is load shed protected, so if you drive a relay with it, whatever the relay is controlling will be protected as well. At 700W TPHPM is not really required, but I think if you can give the buck/boost device more + consistent volts, it won't have to work as hard, and it will keep the input amps down.

 

[BadWolf]

On the load sensing i've been trying to figure out if it has any over voltage or alternator sensing protection. But all i can find is its low voltage shut off triggers and delay shut off after engine off. It seems all based off battery voltage.

Triggers for Shedding when engine on.
It engages if you drop below 13.0v

Triggers for Shedding when engine off. (to make sure you have enough power to start again)
When off it engages if you drop below 11.0v
And after a time limit once engine turn off, and until "unlock" or the engine is back on ~3 seconds after starting. (Enabling High power mode disables this)

Only once can i find it talk about "Overload" at "Engine Run" its to make sure it has enough for EPAS (electric power steering) How i read that is to have enough power for the EPAS to start up correctly. Which matches with it waiting ~3 seconds to engage after engine start.

I have both my CL12 and MPPT50DC to shut off at 13.0v so i'm on par with the engine running cut off, and well above the engine off cut off. Both i would guess take ~10 seconds to get to full power.

Am i missing something other than low voltage cutoff for a triggering event?