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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

I first mentioned the issue on my build thread, but I decided to start a new thread since we are a few users on this forum with the SAME exact issue. I just wanted to give this issue some visibility just in case others are looking for answers...

ISSUE:
The Webasto Air Top 2000 STC PETROL was installed (new) with the 7 days Timer (MultiControl). It was used for about 100 hours before it shut down during the night (error code F02) and would not restart even with multiple attempts. We found that the only way to restart the unit was to drain the fuel line and then restart. Then, eventually the unit completely failed to start (F02). Failed start sequence: Fan start as usual, Fuel pump click as usual, no fire. Fuel Pump pause, then resume, then no fire, then the unit shut down and gives a F02 code.

Another user had his unit checked by a Webasto Technician. The glow plug was replaced, combustion chamber cleaned and this solve the issue. Then, the problem came back. The glow plug was once again toasted.

I just sent an email to TechWebasto explaining the issue and telling them that others have the same problem. I will report back with the answer here.

This is our installation:
http://faroutride.com/air-heater-installation/

If you are having this issue too, PLEASE report it here so that we can have more weight with Webasto Tech. Thanks.
 

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I have the same gasoline model, also with the Multicontrol HD on my 2016 Transit 250. Mine has less than 40 hours on it, and I've gotten the F02 code twice. Both times I've powered the unit down (waited for all fans to shutoff) and simply restarted heat mode to get it to work.

In my case I believe it was fuel levels and/or the angle of the parking relative to the pickup location of the fuel line. My tank needs to be reading above 50% for the pickup to get adequate fuel into the line. The Ford pickup line is near the rear of the tank, so parking with the cab pointed downslope would make the fuel even less likely to get sucked up.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I spent most of my spare time running tests on my heater this week…

I have eliminated these potential source:
1) Out of gas
2) Bad gas
3) Air Bubbles
4) Clogged exhaust or intake

I am left with these observations:
1) The heater will start when cold (i.e. sitting overnight) but will not start when warm.
2) When warm, the only way to start the heater is to drain the fuel line (by disconnecting the line from the pump and letting the gas escape, then re-connect the pump). If the fuel line is empty when attempting a start, the heater will fire-up.
3) When warm and attempting to start the heater with a primed fuel line, the combustion will fire-up only during the abort sequence (but the heater still shut-down because the abort sequence has already started).

TechWebasto tried to help, but they have no clue and suggested to visit a Webasto Technician.

I found out that the “STC” unit I bought from U.K. is not sold in America, so technicians are reluctant to work on it. “STC” (European) vs “ST”: the pump, electrical harness and control unit are different; it uses different running and start parameters.
If my local technician is not able to help, I will have to send the heater back to UK for diagnostic.

This no-start issue is just weird… I don’t get the logic behind that behavior…
 

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Just had an f03 error tonight, which is basically f02 - no combustion. Let the unit power down and for the fans to totally stop. Started up again with no issues.

I've read your website, and you have omitted the fuel filter. I'm wondering if this is fouling up the combustion process. I also, am not using a fuel filter.


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Altitude will also affect the burn rate and may foul the igniter. If you were in the mountains or high plateau that might be part of the problem.

🙈🙉🙊
 

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You might want to try setting it for high altitude (or vice versa). There's a sequence you do after grounding out a pin on the harness near the heater. F02 is normally thrown when there's air in the line. It's quite possible that the heater is set for a different altitude than you've been operating at. That could explain a cold vs warm issue. Also, I'd triple check your fittings and make sure there are no air leaks on the intake or exhaust. Might also behoove you to remove the intake and exhaust silencers and see if that returns it to proper form.

The fact that you can get it to fire after draining the line and then reconnecting sure sounds like an air bubble related issue to me. I have F02 semi-often because I made the mistake of using a ~6" section of 5/16" line right out of the tank before stepping it down to the small diameter webasto line. I'm 99% sure that due to the large fuel line diameter and the step down that an air bubble/empty line issue forms there which has to purge if I don't run it regularly and the line drains back into an emptyish tank. Usually 2-3 restarts clears it and all is good. I did have an issue during my recent California trip where the heater would run for 30 minutes and then fizzle out. Consistently. I was worried about the burner being plugged up or something, but it turned out to be a tank of gas that the heater didn't like. Old gas station in Garberville. Maybe some water, or fuel that was over winterized. After running the tank down and filling fresh it worked like a champ for the rest of the trip.

Lastly, you ended up using the aux port on the fuel tank, yeah? If so, make sure that you have half a tank or more of fuel. Below that you'll be sucking air as the aux port doesn't run to very low in the tank.

Hope you get it figured.
 

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I'm 99% sure that due to the large fuel line diameter and the step down that an air bubble/empty line issue forms there which has to purge if I don't run it regularly and the line drains back into an emptyish tank.
My last camping trip I had my Espar burp and had to reset it- I think I had air in the line too- prior to that use I had one of the few times I ever let the tank get low.
I plan to pull the straw and replace it with a longer one- maybe just stay 1/4" or so off tank bottom- I'll determine myself if I'll run out of fuel from heater operation- I don't really need Ford playing nanny placing the pickup so high in the tank.

I wonder why someone hasn't come up with a check valve in the pickup line end so a low fuel tank doesn't let the fuel drop back out of the line when one isn't using the heater..hmmmm.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You might want to try setting it for high altitude (or vice versa). There's a sequence you do after grounding out a pin on the harness near the heater. F02 is normally thrown when there's air in the line. It's quite possible that the heater is set for a different altitude than you've been operating at. That could explain a cold vs warm issue. Also, I'd triple check your fittings and make sure there are no air leaks on the intake or exhaust. Might also behoove you to remove the intake and exhaust silencers and see if that returns it to proper form.

The fact that you can get it to fire after draining the line and then reconnecting sure sounds like an air bubble related issue to me. I have F02 semi-often because I made the mistake of using a ~6" section of 5/16" line right out of the tank before stepping it down to the small diameter webasto line. I'm 99% sure that due to the large fuel line diameter and the step down that an air bubble/empty line issue forms there which has to purge if I don't run it regularly and the line drains back into an emptyish tank. Usually 2-3 restarts clears it and all is good. I did have an issue during my recent California trip where the heater would run for 30 minutes and then fizzle out. Consistently. I was worried about the burner being plugged up or something, but it turned out to be a tank of gas that the heater didn't like. Old gas station in Garberville. Maybe some water, or fuel that was over winterized. After running the tank down and filling fresh it worked like a champ for the rest of the trip.

Lastly, you ended up using the aux port on the fuel tank, yeah? If so, make sure that you have half a tank or more of fuel. Below that you'll be sucking air as the aux port doesn't run to very low in the tank.

Hope you get it figured.
Thanks for your input.

I bypassed the aux port by pumping from a clear jerry can. There was no bubble and the problem remained.
I'm at sea level, so the heater should not need altitude adjustment; unless there is a problem with the heater...


I just visited my local Webasto Tech. They could not read the diagnostic codes; there was just no communication between the heater and the computer. They blamed it on the European heater (STC). They checked my installation and it is correct. They think it might be the difference in european vs american fuel (different octane level), but it's just a guess. 2 hours later (250$), no progress. It was my decision to install it myself, so i'm ok with some repair cost. But about that European thing (STC), i'm a bit frustrated that the info is not available anywhere. It does says "Worldwide support 2 years" and approved Webasto sellers ship them to america... I would still go the DIY way, but i would buy the "ST" in lieu of the "STC" if I had known before.

I will have to send the unit to U.K. for proper diagnostic. I expect around 100-200$ shipping cost...

(issue: the heater will fire-up only AFTER the shutdown (abort) sequence has started. too late...)

To be continued...
 

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Really curious. I'm surprised that the diagnostic codes couldn't be read and that the STC is a different unit in any way other than some euro certification. I've scoured the STC and ST manuals side by side and can't see any differences. Must just be firmware differences. Physically they appear to be the same--spare parts are often labeled as fitting both the ST and STC (burner, glow plug, etc.). It certainly is possible that ethanol is disliked by a European tuned model, but that would be surprising. That said, what do they sell in Brazil? Maybe the STC? Good luck.

PS> It might be worth checking if maybe the heater came set for high altitude. Doubtful, but toggling to the other mode might change things. It's a hail Mary for sure, but might be worth a try. They say that once set for altitude you can leave it there--even at sea level--with the only side effects being a leaner burn (cleaner burner over time) and a loss of 3-5% max heat output. Might be worth fiddling with it as any change in mixture might make the heater fire differently and more promptly.
 

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Just found this: "The NEW Webasto Air Top 2000 STC is now available on our online shop. This product is the further development of the Webasto Air Top 2000 ST and has the same dimensions and technical characteristics. It also runs under the same legal operating licence as the Webasto Air Top 2000 ST. It uses the standard fuel pump DP42 as used in the Webasto Air Top Evo 40/55 heaters. A change of the applications when using the new heater is not required except for using ta different metering pump ad harness. The Webasto Air Top 2000 STC will ensure full W-Bus compatibility and full operation with the NEW SmartControl and MultiControl without using the Unibox. Can be used in conjunctions with the Webasto ThermoCall TC4, this Can also be purchased on our online shop."

Sounds like it's a newer improved version of the ST which would explain maybe why ST test equipment won't properly interface with it. Updated heater as of 2015 (in Europe).

Butler Technik sells both the ST and STC in the U.K. So it looks like the ST is an international design that's the same everywhere. I'm guessing that the STC will be coming to the US sometime soonish.

https://www.butlertechnik.com
 

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Down the rabbit hole. So I'm pretty sure the webasto dealer you went to may not have had the newest WTT diagnosis software. It appears that most people use v2.13, but that the STC support was added in 3.0 or 3.2. Dealers should be able to download the newest software here: http://dealers.webasto.com

You may want to check what version the dealer was using to attempt the connection to your heater. Having done a lot of electronics work experience suggests that the reason they couldn't connect is because the device model number wasn't recognized. The data comes out of these heaters as serial, which is a pretty much universal method of data read/write for interfacing with basic electronics.

One other avenue is that you may want to call Webasto in Germany and see if somebody can explain what a US dealer needs to do to connect and diagnose your STC (or maybe a helpful dealer in the U.K. Can tell you what software version they use to diagnose an STC).
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for your help everyone.

By chance, i took a photo of the computer connected to my Webasto; i can see that they are using version 2.09 of the software... this might be why they could not detect the STC. I don't want to go back to that shop though; they might be good installer but i'm not too confident about their troubleshooting skills...

I did a last attempt today. I simplified everything to the minimum...

Still the same behavior. I wasted enough time trying to figure this out; it's removed from the van now and will soon be shipped.

This video shows that the combustion ignite after the "abort" sequence (3m25):
https://youtu.be/42vNE3b5XOY?t=3m25s



 

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Could this be an air bubble in the fuel line what was the trick that was used on some of the automobile fuel lines to remove an air bubble
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Just got news:
Carbon Buildup.
(again, we are at sea level and used the heater for extended period of time. Carbon buildup should not happen)

Just like another member here.

They want to clean it and send it back to us, but i see no reason why the problem will just disappears by itself! The other member with the same issue had to clean it twice already.

I asked for a replacement unit, because if i have to ship it to U.K. every time it has to be clean, it will cost a fortune in carrier freight.

Let's see.
 

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I'm curious if any others here have had the carbon build-up issue besides myself and Antoine, and what typically causes it? I've heard that it's from incomplete combustion in the burn chamber from the heater not being hot enough?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Found that in the Espar (not Webasto) manual:

5. CARBONED BURNER CHAMBER – these are non-warrantable unless caused
by a primary failed part covered under a warrantable failure situation.

a. Caused by a restriction of intake or exhaust.
b. Caused by improper angle of fuel pump, pump must be 15 – 35 degree
angle up with the outlet / harness connection being on the high side.
c. Fuel system that has had improper amount of additives injected into the tank.
d. Fuel system with any kind of oil being used in the fuel.
e. Short cycling caused by improper application or electrical power
connections.

. If burner chamber has carbon build up replace the burner chamber
1. Soft carbon: (non-warranty).
a. Is an indication of over fueling (Pump angle).
b. Restricted exhaust.
c. Restricted intake.
d. Plugged blower wheel.

2. Hard carbon: (non-warranty)
a. Is an indication of too much additives.
b. Heavy concentration of bio-fuel.
c. Short cycle of heater (recommended minimum runtime is 15 minutes).
d. Road debris (reposition combustion air intake to a location not to pick-up debris).
e. Clear codes and run unit.

There is more info at page 31 & 31:
http://www.sprinter-rv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/2013_Espar_AirtronicD2-D4_Repair_Manual.pdf


What i understand is, there are may possible source. It will be difficult to narrow it down the the single source...
 
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