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Discussion Starter #1
Many people are now afraid of electric vehicles, and are looking at ways to stop or slow their popularity.
"New things are scary!" declared one small man climbing out of a large truck parked in a way to prevent EV owners from using charging stations. "I don't like things that aren't usual" said another, "things should stay the way they were when I was in my teens and 20's, and never change".

Here's a well written article on how to slow the popularity of EVs, filled with false talking points like "too much toxic waste" and "not enough lithium for the batteries" and the ever popular "just burning coal to power them":

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/06/50-ways-to-slow-the-electric-vehicle-revolution/
 

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I've been waiting patiently for EV to reach that point where I can drive 1000 miles in a day as conveniently as I can with petrol power. In every other respect EV can be superior.

An article I read about the Tesla X setting a Guiness book record for towing a 787, or the Roadster going 0-60 in 1.6 seconds, and so on, speak volumes of the potential for many different applications where electric will push petrol power out of existence, once the tech reaches the point where batteries can be re-charged in minutes rather than hours.

Hybrid is something that there needs to be more available as an option in the mean time, particularly for smaller trucks, deliver vehicles, and so on.
 

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Well, I like EV, but I am bigger proponent of forcing everyone to use bikes.


Even for big rigs. Use the current roads, ban cars. You may use a car in like, one designated lane, if you pay a massive use-fee specific to the trip. For big rigs, you have 300 to 400 bikers all harnessed up. We have the technology to make this work. Each biker has a meter showing how much energy they are putting in to haul the load - no slacking allowed. This is a job. Each rider signs up to ride how ever many miles they want - say 20 miles: the rig never stops moving, as one spot empties the rider rides up and an electromagnet engages the bike as they get into their slot.

You do you 10 miles one way, or 20 miles one way, then ride over to the other side of the road, and ride your 10 or 20 miles back.

You want to get across the country real fast? Ride your bike to the train, and ride the train, take your bike. Now the fears everyone expresses about why they can't ride a bike because it's too dangerous blah blah too cold (ski gear exists...)

There would still be accidents, but I am willing to bet deaths by bicycle would be far fewer than by motor

An excerpt from an interesting article: (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/02/10/the-happy-city/)

Originally, we had big dense cities, small towns, and agricultural areas. The small towns were where people tended to be happiest.
Cities expanded to meet the desires of the workers: being close to work, but also having clean air and privacy like their small town counterparts. Housing was built at the edges in “street car neighborhoods” If you have ever walked around residential San Francisco, this is the basic feel.
When cars joined the picture, a consortium of GM, Firestone, Phillips Oil, Shell Oil, and Standard Oil bought up street car companies and shut them down. They also lobbied the government heavily and formed “Motorist Associations” to advocate for the rights of drivers – making driving more convenient and thus boosting driving demand for their products.
Cars were originally thought of as dangerous intruders in the city. If a driver killed a pedestrian with his car, it was a crime.
The motorist associations pushed to change this balance: they sought to convince people that the problem of safety involved making sure people did not get in the way of cars.
They invented the crime of “Jaywalking”, which is crossing a street somewhere other than a controlled crossing area.
They pushed in the current legal arrangement, where if you kill a person with your car, it’s probably just a traffic violation. In some cases, it won’t be your fault at all as long as you were obeying the rules of the road.
Motorist associations also continually push for car-friendly policies like highway expansion, fighting against traffic tickets and speed traps, and even write articles like “Elon’s Carbon Con“, completely misunderstanding (or deliberately misrepresenting?) the entire life purpose of one of my favorite humans.
That last bullet point strays into politics, because you get into a battle of freedom versus regulation. I personally feel that if in doubt, you should err on the side of freedom. And in this regard, the book brought up its most stunning point:

Our current city planning method is not the result of free market forces at all. It’s actually an incredibly strict book of regulations which separates functions – residential, commercial, and industrial. It also defines setbacks, lot sizes, intersections, and parking requirements. It is all standardized in a group of standard, downloadable regulations that most cities purchase from Municode, while the road design comes from the Federal Highway Association’s Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUCTD).
This is a self-replicating zombie of a system: every new town simply downloads and implements the existing book of rules without thinking about it, because “This is how things work in America”
But that original book of rules was built from an almost comical chain of events. The oil companies and motorist associations. Special interests and racism, like a regulation in Modesto, CA which banned clothes washing facilites from the main street, which happened to be run by Chinese people. The desire of rich people to keep away poor people (which is easy to do legally if you just ban duplexes and apartment buildings, or specify a minimum lot size as many suburbs do.
Highway subsidies, like the way we build roads with public money, lower the perceived cost of building a dispersed city. Mortgage subsidies from the federal housing association that made it easier to buy new houses than to restore or rebuild existing more central buildings.
 

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I agree with Truck , I would add ,,, convert all the existing bike trails to under ground tunnels for during bad weather and you could ride on top/ outside as normal when the weather is nice.
It would be a much more social environment and no Steep costs of technology , if your bike ever broke you could have it completely overhauled by a professional bike mechanic for around $70.
I always think that if I could go back and live my life over without automobiles and computers my life would have been way way richer.
I envy the people in the asian countries that ride bikes and scooters or walk.
 

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I just turned in my VW eGolf and leased a Honda Clarity plug in. Wife had a Prius plug in and now a Kia plug in. Both of us drive about 20 mi one way to work and use these as commuter vehicles. Our Transit is the weekend/camper/beach vehicle.

Driving an EV is awesome. Running out of charge is not. My eGolf had a 90-mile range; now they have a 135 mi range. I would never get one w/ less than a 200 mi range. Sometimes, I would find that my car didn't charge in the a.m. for whatever reason. Then I'd have to charge on the way or on the way home.

A plug in solves this issue. I can go 60 mi on one charge and then have another 390 mi on a full gas tank. I go to the gas station every two weeks and haven't spent more than $12 for a fill up, yet.

Can't wait for tech to make fast chargers and long range EVs affordable.
 

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We use a plug in hybrid.
Mostly short trips that easily come out of the 35 mi range battery. Total miles ~ 10,000/yr.
If needed the hybrid allows us to travel further without any limitation at ~ 55 mpg.
Thus far we had to get one full tank of gas per two months.
Every night we charge the plug in at ~-0.09/kWh which is off set with net metering. Our solar panels charge during day time the network for ~ +0.40/kWh.
Total net electricity bill at end of year ~ $100 except for fixed monthly connection costs and initial (10 yrs ago $9000 investment).
To get to work I mostly bike to BART, ride the train and then bike to work. This is equally fast as driving (=sitting in traffic) and saves me also on money and time spent on a fitness club.
The Transit is a different story with ~ 17 mpg.
 

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Well, I like EV, but I am bigger proponent of forcing everyone to use bikes.


Even for big rigs. Use the current roads, ban cars. You may use a car in like, one designated lane, if you pay a massive use-fee specific to the trip. For big rigs, you have 300 to 400 bikers all harnessed up. We have the technology to make this work. Each biker has a meter showing how much energy they are putting in to haul the load - no slacking allowed. This is a job. Each rider signs up to ride how ever many miles they want - say 20 miles: the rig never stops moving, as one spot empties the rider rides up and an electromagnet engages the bike as they get into their slot.

You do you 10 miles one way, or 20 miles one way, then ride over to the other side of the road, and ride your 10 or 20 miles back.

You want to get across the country real fast? Ride your bike to the train, and ride the train, take your bike. Now the fears everyone expresses about why they can't ride a bike because it's too dangerous blah blah too cold (ski gear exists...)

There would still be accidents, but I am willing to bet deaths by bicycle would be far fewer than by motor

An excerpt from an interesting article: (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/02/10/the-happy-city/)

Originally, we had big dense cities, small towns, and agricultural areas. The small towns were where people tended to be happiest.
Cities expanded to meet the desires of the workers: being close to work, but also having clean air and privacy like their small town counterparts. Housing was built at the edges in “street car neighborhoods” If you have ever walked around residential San Francisco, this is the basic feel.
When cars joined the picture, a consortium of GM, Firestone, Phillips Oil, Shell Oil, and Standard Oil bought up street car companies and shut them down. They also lobbied the government heavily and formed “Motorist Associations” to advocate for the rights of drivers – making driving more convenient and thus boosting driving demand for their products.
Cars were originally thought of as dangerous intruders in the city. If a driver killed a pedestrian with his car, it was a crime.
The motorist associations pushed to change this balance: they sought to convince people that the problem of safety involved making sure people did not get in the way of cars.
They invented the crime of “Jaywalking”, which is crossing a street somewhere other than a controlled crossing area.
They pushed in the current legal arrangement, where if you kill a person with your car, it’s probably just a traffic violation. In some cases, it won’t be your fault at all as long as you were obeying the rules of the road.
Motorist associations also continually push for car-friendly policies like highway expansion, fighting against traffic tickets and speed traps, and even write articles like “Elon’s Carbon Con“, completely misunderstanding (or deliberately misrepresenting?) the entire life purpose of one of my favorite humans.
That last bullet point strays into politics, because you get into a battle of freedom versus regulation. I personally feel that if in doubt, you should err on the side of freedom. And in this regard, the book brought up its most stunning point:

Our current city planning method is not the result of free market forces at all. It’s actually an incredibly strict book of regulations which separates functions – residential, commercial, and industrial. It also defines setbacks, lot sizes, intersections, and parking requirements. It is all standardized in a group of standard, downloadable regulations that most cities purchase from Municode, while the road design comes from the Federal Highway Association’s Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUCTD).
This is a self-replicating zombie of a system: every new town simply downloads and implements the existing book of rules without thinking about it, because “This is how things work in America”
But that original book of rules was built from an almost comical chain of events. The oil companies and motorist associations. Special interests and racism, like a regulation in Modesto, CA which banned clothes washing facilites from the main street, which happened to be run by Chinese people. The desire of rich people to keep away poor people (which is easy to do legally if you just ban duplexes and apartment buildings, or specify a minimum lot size as many suburbs do.
Highway subsidies, like the way we build roads with public money, lower the perceived cost of building a dispersed city. Mortgage subsidies from the federal housing association that made it easier to buy new houses than to restore or rebuild existing more central buildings.
I can'tell if are joking or serious. The way you kept going on made me think you are serious. Please tell me you are joking.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
We got a used Fiat 500e a few weeks ago. I'm trying to find ways to prevent us from using it, such as claiming a lot of false narratives about electric cars, but it hasn't worked.

EVs are great for city use, but some people live in rural areas and drive 100-300 miles a day just doing their regular stuff. That's within the range of some EVs, but why push it? For the vast majority of Americans, a 100 mile range is plenty, though. Bikes and especially electric assist bikes are great for flat, condensed urban areas in mild climates, but aren't the greatest for hilly cities that get weather. There was quite a big variety of bikes in Tokyo, including enclosed 3-wheelers. Also, most Merikuns are too fat or out of shape to ride a bike more than a block or two without risking some health event like a stroke or heart attack. And then you want to top that off with a Costco load of stuff on the bike?! (I actually would take my bike with the B.O.B. trailer to Costco, it's only 2.5 miles away right on the Bay Trail bike path).
 

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I think there is a lot of truth in Truck's comments but like everything, it depends......
My son is working and living is Seattle, he typically walks or bicycles to work, doesn't have a car, lives in an apartment and enjoys doing things in the city. For what he does and in Seattle it is almost perfect, eco friendly and pleasant. (He does come out to the burbs to borrow my SUV to go surfing on alternate weekends.)
He may want / need a car / different neighborhood as he gets married and has kids. That is a fairly normal progression.
At that time I would expect that he would get a hybrid. They are a work in progress but for most non commercial applications a hybrid or pure EV is clearly the next step.
A well designed EV is a hoot to drive, economical and more eco friendly if you are a long term owner.

Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If only the horse and buggy owners had thought of this 125 years ago! Hitch their horses in front of the gas pumps so people would give up on cars and stay with the horse and buggy as the best and ONLY way to get around. I guess Big Horse and Big Wagon Wheel industries weren't as organized as Big Oil is today.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I know two people who I believe are expecting delivery of their Atlas trucks in 2020.
:rolleyes:

Good luck with that.

Also, it looks like the Tesla pickup will be just a pedestrian, average, every-day looking pickup and not a smaller version of the semi. Sad. But, their biggest market will be suburbanites, not people who actually use pickups for their intended purposes.
 

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