[joe.horton.jr]

Looks like this Leviton combined dual function 20 amp AFCI/GFCI, $32 outlet, could be really useful a Van build. I have been asking why the boat folks don't seem to care about either other than then the 35 ma tripping ELCI that I bought from Blue Sea for the Shore power inlet. I plan on having a 2000 watt inverter behind the driver's seat following several of the folks on this forum, so why not protect the 12.5 amps I plan on drawing (via a Multiplus current limit setting) thru this combined outlet in a simple regular blue outlet box. Very compact. Would this protect all downstream or would the Multiplus somehow block it's protection? Some on this forum just leave the Multiplus setting from 120 inverter from the van at 12.5 or so amp limit whether on shore power or van power. That leaves another 11.5 amps from a 30amp shore outlet (80% of 30 minus 12.5), that I am thinking of sending directly to my isotemp 750 watt water heater and my 600 watt Extreme bilge air heater and so why not use the same combined AF/GFCI shown here in one circuit feeding both devices.

Also while some use #6/3 and a 50a main breaker on their 120v distribution panel, gregoryx, at least in the drawing of his that I have in my printed stack, had 2 lines coming from his Multiplus each going thru a 20a GFCI in a duplex outlet box. Are his wires indeed both from AC1 and in the same lug position? Are there any good practice advice on how to do that? For the #10 or #12 cables and with the fine stranded Ancor really nice flexible cable, should I crimp on a ring and have to take out and manage to restart the screw or use a spade and slide it under the screw? But there is a slight chance there is a reverse clamping plate then what would be proper termination for the Ancor marine wire? Thanks for any help. Also can one attach a regular 120 volt plug on this cable, ie is there space or some trick or is it buy right plug?

 

[jkmann]

When you supply the Multiplus with a shore power feed, it will passthrough the 120V ground wire to the inverter without grounding it to the chassis. As a result, if there is any ground leakage downstream of the Multiplus I would expect that to trip your AF/GFCI breaker at your front seat inverter.

Since the inverter does not have access to a true ground, the neutral and ground wires will normally be bonded inside the inverter and grounded to the chassis so there is some path for a ground fault. This is also why using GFCI breakers is extra important whenever using an inverter. There isn't a true ground path, so you need to trip a compromised circuit as quickly as possible.

Since the Multiplus can supply power despite no shore power input, you do need downstream AF/GFCI breakers for safety. While I appreciate that it's possible to not use 120V amperage breakers, this is not a safe choice. The Multiplus is capable of producing enough amperage to melt a 20A outlet and 12AWG wiring, so if you forgo an amperage breaker and your plugs get overloaded, you are designing in a very dangerous situation.

If you only have two circuits, you could use an ultra simple breaker box with an AWG 10 wire into it feeding two 15A breakers, and two AWG12 wires coming out protected by the breakers. I'm not sure this is exactly what you were asking about, but an over-amperage situation on a 120V line is a very-common occurence compared with almost any other breaker in your system.

 

[joe.horton.jr]

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your first comment, the shore/gen rotary switch is double pole and no overlap in the contacts, I have this in hand and checked this out. If on shore power, seat inverter is disconnected and presumably I've turned it off. With no shore power and the seat inverter in use, then AF/GFCI shouldn't trip, should it?

I do not understand how or when either of these inverters limit current and or internally breaker the 120 output. Does my proposed Giandel front seat inverter, need the AC cable out to have an amperage breaker? Their hard wired lugs are labeled for 1500 to 2200 watts. Or does the cable size need to be double the rating to account for surges with no breaker needed? I think most folks are using a 10/3 from these front seat inverters toward the multiplus.

For the ACout from the multiplus, does the cable need to be sized and breakered very close to the unit at twice the 3000 watts or 50amps? I see many use #6 and then a 50amp breaker in the panel but subpanels in my house don't need nor have a main breaker. What's your compact 120v breaker panel recommendation? But I may use combined afci/gfci in it. Square D 2 space 2 circuit says 30a so that must be the bus limit, dimensions are 6.7 x 3.8 x 3 deep. Their 2 space 4 circuit panel is 70a and 9.3 x 4.8 x 3.2 deep.

I went to your list of useful discussions and am reading on those. Whose schematic are you most closely following? Have you posted a drawing? Cycle61 whiteboard drawing and gregoryX is closest for me to look at that I have found. I have bought the Victron 24v/200ah battery and am giving in to the LynxBMS next to a Lynx distributor. I've updated my own hand drawing and now have only 4 three way switches. My drawing assumes Multiplus always limits ACin at 12.5 amps whether on shore or Van power. Then the extra shore power can go to water or space heaters. My geographical Powerpoint drawing is not worth showing. My plumbing drawing also has 4 three way valves somewhat following NealCarney and EranRund.

 

[jkmann]

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your first comment, the shore/gen rotary switch is double pole and no overlap in the contacts, I have this in hand and checked this out. If on shore power, seat inverter is disconnected and presumably I've turned it off. With no shore power and the seat inverter in use, then AF/GFCI shouldn't trip, should it?

I do not understand how or when either of these inverters limit current and or internally breaker the 120 output. Does my proposed Giandel front seat inverter, need the AC cable out to have an amperage breaker? Their hard wired lugs are labeled for 1500 to 2200 watts. Or does the cable size need to be double the rating to account for surges with no breaker needed? I think most folks are using a 10/3 from these front seat inverters toward the multiplus.

For the ACout from the multiplus, does the cable need to be sized and breakered very close to the unit at twice the 3000 watts or 50amps? I see many use #6 and then a 50amp breaker in the panel but subpanels in my house don't need nor have a main breaker. What's your compact 120v breaker panel recommendation? But I may use combined afci/gfci in it. Square D 2 space 2 circuit says 30a so that must be the bus limit, dimensions are 6.7 x 3.8 x 3 deep. Their 2 space 4 circuit panel is 70a and 9.3 x 4.8 x 3.2 deep.

I went to your list of useful discussions and am reading on those. Whose schematic are you most closely following? Have you posted a drawing? Cycle61 whiteboard drawing and gregoryX is closest for me to look at that I have found. I have bought the Victron 24v/200ah battery and am giving in to the LynxBMS next to a Lynx distributor. I've updated my own hand drawing and now have only 4 three way switches. My drawing assumes Multiplus always limits ACin at 12.5 amps whether on shore or Van power. Then the extra shore power can go to water or space heaters. My geographical Powerpoint drawing is not worth showing. My plumbing drawing also has 4 three way valves somewhat following NealCarney and EranRund. View attachment 184871

A lot of inverters have a GFCI breaker outlet as their supply outlet, so I think this is pretty standard. My understanding is that these only protect downstream of the breaker, so it won't be bothered by the seat inverter and neutral both being bonded to the chassis.

You need some kind of breaker or fuse for the seat inverter. If you have a 120A breaker on the 12V side that will limit it to producing no more than 1400 watts, so you won't need additional amperate protection on the 120V output. There isn't any way for it to magically come up with additional electrical energy. Brief surges of power are generally OK since wires don't heat and fuse instantly.

You mention that the subpanels in your house don't have a main breaker. That is because they have a breaker on the feed wire. So if that subpanel is being fed by an AWG10 wire, it will have a 30A breaker at the distribution panel that is feeding the subpanel. That is the main breaker for the sub-panel. If the subpanel exceeds 30A in total, that breaker will trip.

Coming out of the Multiplus you should use a breaker or fuse to protect the wires you are running. If you are running a 10AWG out of the Multiplus that can feed two 15A circuits without additional protection, since the total is below it's rating. If you want to run a total of more than 30A of circuits then I think some kind of distribution panel would be the easiest way to get it wired. For 30A, the BlueSea Systems 3131 holds two 120V breakers that take #10 screw size ring terminals. This picture shows them joined, but you can also have them separate. You could bring an AWG10 to one breaker line terminal of a 15A breaker and jumper with an AWG12 to the line terminal of the other 15A breaker, then feed off of those. It would be a little tight inside the box, but would be OK. I used the BlueSea Systems 8027 panel to make things easier, but you can also do it as I've described.

The Multiplus does not have any current limiting on the output side other than it's overheat protection. So .. depending on which model you are using and how you have it set, it can deliver well over 30A since it can draw on the battery as well as the shore power input. As a result, you can easily burn out a downstream circuit that is not current protected.

On the other hand, and this is not what I would do, but you can set it up as follows:
a) Set the Multiplus to NOT draw any amperage from the batteries when shore power is connected. This means when shore power is connected the Multiplus is just in passthrough mode.
b) Fuse the input to the Multiplus from the batteries so that when on battery power it can not produce more than 20A as an output.
b) Only connect to shore power (seat inverter or external) that is protected by a 20A or smaller breaker.
If you do all that then you will never have more than 20A coming out of the multiplus and you can get away with not using any breakers. That is until someone changes something out without thinking. This is not a robust design, but it would work.

I'm also using Victron Batteries (4x200A at 12.8V), with a VE Bus BMS, and 220A Battery Protect. As a result my wiring is closest to some of the Victron diagrams. Here is a picture of my main wiring showing the Multiplus. I used a lot of busbar instead of cables to make everything much more compact than the typical approach. The solar input on the left is in red. The ground wire is the fat yellow wire on the right. In addition to the Multiplus feed there are three main DC feed studs coming out of the Battery Protect. The VE Bus BMS is just to the right of the Multiplus and has it's blue led lit up. Red is (+), Yellow is (-).

 

[Jodi]

Hi! I just ended up needing to replace my gfci Leviton plug. For some reason the Multiplus was not able to reset the plug when it tripped. Any input on this issue?

 

[kenryan]

Hi! I just ended up needing to replace my gfci Leviton plug. For some reason the Multiplus was not able to reset the plug when it tripped. Any input on this issue?

Check your manual to see if Victron has recommended outlets that have been tested to work. My Magnum manual does.

 

[gregoryx]

Check your manual to see if Victron has recommended outlets that have been tested to work. My Magnum manual does.

The Magnum has an option to install an outlet /in/ the inverter chassis. That might be part of why they'd spec them.

 

[joe.horton.jr]

A lot of inverters have a GFCI breaker outlet as their supply outlet, so I think this is pretty standard. My understanding is that these only protect downstream of the breaker, so it won't be bothered by the seat inverter and neutral both being bonded to the chassis.

You need some kind of breaker or fuse for the seat inverter. If you have a 120A breaker on the 12V side that will limit it to producing no more than 1400 watts, so you won't need additional amperate protection on the 120V output. There isn't any way for it to magically come up with additional electrical energy. Brief surges of power are generally OK since wires don't heat and fuse instantly.

You mention that the subpanels in your house don't have a main breaker. That is because they have a breaker on the feed wire. So if that subpanel is being fed by an AWG10 wire, it will have a 30A breaker at the distribution panel that is feeding the subpanel. That is the main breaker for the sub-panel. If the subpanel exceeds 30A in total, that breaker will trip.

Coming out of the Multiplus you should use a breaker or fuse to protect the wires you are running. If you are running a 10AWG out of the Multiplus that can feed two 15A circuits without additional protection, since the total is below it's rating. If you want to run a total of more than 30A of circuits then I think some kind of distribution panel would be the easiest way to get it wired. For 30A, the BlueSea Systems 3131 holds two 120V breakers that take #10 screw size ring terminals. This picture shows them joined, but you can also have them separate. You could bring an AWG10 to one breaker line terminal of a 15A breaker and jumper with an AWG12 to the line terminal of the other 15A breaker, then feed off of those. It would be a little tight inside the box, but would be OK. I used the BlueSea Systems 8027 panel to make things easier, but you can also do it as I've described.
View attachment 184876

The Multiplus does not have any current limiting on the output side other than it's overheat protection. So .. depending on which model you are using and how you have it set, it can deliver well over 30A since it can draw on the battery as well as the shore power input. As a result, you can easily burn out a downstream circuit that is not current protected.

On the other hand, and this is not what I would do, but you can set it up as follows:
a) Set the Multiplus to NOT draw any amperage from the batteries when shore power is connected. This means when shore power is connected the Multiplus is just in passthrough mode.
b) Fuse the input to the Multiplus from the batteries so that when on battery power it can not produce more than 20A as an output.
b) Only connect to shore power (seat inverter or external) that is protected by a 20A or smaller breaker.
If you do all that then you will never have more than 20A coming out of the multiplus and you can get away with not using any breakers. That is until someone changes something out without thinking. This is not a robust design, but it would work.

I'm also using Victron Batteries (4x200A at 12.8V), with a VE Bus BMS, and 220A Battery Protect. As a result my wiring is closest to some of the Victron diagrams. Here is a picture of my main wiring showing the Multiplus. I used a lot of busbar instead of cables to make everything much more compact than the typical approach. The solar input on the left is in red. The ground wire is the fat yellow wire on the right. In addition to the Multiplus feed there are three main DC feed studs coming out of the Battery Protect. The VE Bus BMS is just to the right of the Multiplus and has it's blue led lit up. Red is (+), Yellow is (-).
View attachment 184877

At first your photo was confusing but I think it equals in size the 19 x 7 inches of the Lynx BMS plus distributor and looks like $600 cheaper (looks like $3950 vs 3350). Are you going to use MRBF terminal fuses on the DC output bar? Why do you mention a 220 amp battery protect? With either Victron Lynx BMS or the VE.Bus BMS, I always see a battery protect, I assume at 50 amps (even though I'm at 24v), headed toward the DC 24 to 12 and then distribution panel. Sometimes I see a battery protect on the MPPT source, I apparantly don't really understand their use. Where did you get the bus bar material? I assume you sawed to length, bent and drilled as needed and the material had specs as a conducting bus bar? Thanks for your comments. My price tally includes basically all Victron components except the battery so Multiplus, MPPT 100/30, 24 to 12, Cerbo and the bigger screen, usb, wifi connectors, battery T fuse.

 

[jkmann]

Are you going to use MRBF terminal fuses on the DC output bar? Why do you mention a 220 amp battery protect? With either Victron Lynx BMS or the VE.Bus BMS, I always see a battery protect, I assume at 50 amps (even though I'm at 24v), Where did you get the bus bar material? I assume you sawed to length, bent and drilled as needed and the material had specs as a conducting bus bar?

Take another look at the Victron batteries if you have not already purchased your batteries. The VE Bus BMS only works with Victron Batteries. The VE Bus BMS has an "allowed to discharge" terminal, which you connect to your Battery Protect. This prevents over-discharge of the batteries. The VE Bus BMS also has an "allowed to charge" terminal which connects to your Solar Charge Controller and B2B charger if you are using Victron components.

The Battery Protect comes in different sizes. I used the 220A because I have a 12V air conditioner and the 100A would be too small for me. Some batteries have a built-in BMS that protects against over-discharge of the batteries. In that case I think the Battery Protect would be redundant unless you don't like the BMS settings. The BMS could be seen as the heart of your electrical system. Everything else is designed around it's capabilities.

I used MRBF fuses for both the input to the positive busbar and the output terminals from the battery protect. That makes everything very compact.

I got the busbar material from Onlinemetals.com. It's 1" x 0.25" tinned copper, which is rated for 400A. Yes, you just cut it with a non-ferrous blade in your chop saw. It's very easy to drill if you use a slow speed and cutting fluid. Copper is very "grabby," so if you use a high speed in your drill press life can get interesting. I actually stalled my drill press twice before I took the speed down. It's nice if you have a soft abraisive wheel to finish the ends, but a file would work fine as well. To bend the busbar material I just put it in a vise with copper jaws and hit it with a rubber mallet. To get a 90 degree bend you can put four or five marks at 1/4 inch intervals and bend a little, move the bar 1/4", bend some more, move the bar, and bend some more, until you are done.

 

[joe.horton.jr]

m

Take another look at the Victron batteries if you have not already purchased your batteries. The VE Bus BMS only works with Victron Batteries. The VE Bus BMS has an "allowed to discharge" terminal, which you connect to your Battery Protect. This prevents over-discharge of the batteries. The VE Bus BMS also has an "allowed to charge" terminal which connects to your Solar Charge Controller and B2B charger if you are using Victron components.

The Battery Protect comes in different sizes. I used the 220A because I have a 12V air conditioner and the 100A would be too small for me. Some batteries have a built-in BMS that protects against over-discharge of the batteries. In that case I think the Battery Protect would be redundant unless you don't like the BMS settings. The BMS could be seen as the heart of your electrical system. Everything else is designed around it's capabilities.

I used MRBF fuses for both the input to the positive busbar and the output terminals from the battery protect. That makes everything very compact.

I got the busbar material from Onlinemetals.com. It's 1" x 0.25" tinned copper, which is rated for 400A. Yes, you just cut it with a non-ferrous blade in your chop saw. It's very easy to drill if you use a slow speed and cutting fluid. Copper is very "grabby," so if you use a high speed in your drill press life can get interesting. I actually stalled my drill press twice before I took the speed down. It's nice if you have a soft abraisive wheel to finish the ends, but a file would work fine as well. To bend the busbar material I just put it in a vise with copper jaws and hit it with a rubber mallet. To get a 90 degree bend you can put four or five marks at 1/4 inch intervals and bend a little, move the bar 1/4", bend some more, move the bar, and bend some more, until you are done.

My big loads are thru the 110 output which presumably the multiplus is keeping track of and so is not going to discharge my batteries to too low of a state? I have in hand the new Victron 24v 200ah, ordered on a Tues, got it on that Friday from Pkys. The Lynx BMS drawing from Pkys has for me only one battery protect between multiplus and dc distribution. Their VE bus BMS drawing has a battery protect between the MPPT and the bus bar plus the one doing to the DC load. I am not using DC alternator charging so I'm ignoring that part of his diagrams. A little confusing. Looking at a Victron supplied drawing for the VE.Bus BMS, again a battery protect on the MPPT but not on the incoming power from the Van alternator thru 2 Orion's while their Lynx drawing only has Battery Protect and that is to the load via 12 v distribution. Hmmm I think I shall toss a coin between Lynx BMS and distributor and the VE bus BMS.

Oh wait, maybe now I understand, the Lynx BMS has an apparently expensive electrically operated battery disconnect to stop any more drain from the battery. But it does want to be able to turn the DC load off. So it must end the battery discharge due to too much 120 usage by simply disconnecting the battery and I guess that would allow shore power to continue thru the multiplus to those loads. Does this all sound correct? Time to quit thinking and just decide and order. Thanks for your input.

 

[jkmann]

m


My big loads are thru the 110 output which presumably the multiplus is keeping track of and so is not going to discharge my batteries to too low of a state? I have in hand the new Victron 24v 200ah, ordered on a Tues, got it on that Friday from Pkys. The Lynx BMS drawing from Pkys has for me only one battery protect between multiplus and dc distribution. Their VE bus BMS drawing has a battery protect between the MPPT and the bus bar plus the one doing to the DC load. I am not using DC alternator charging so I'm ignoring that part of his diagrams. A little confusing. Looking at a Victron supplied drawing for the VE.Bus BMS, again a battery protect on the MPPT but not on the incoming power from the Van alternator thru 2 Orion's while their Lynx drawing only has Battery Protect and that is to the load via 12 v distribution. Hmmm I think I shall toss a coin between Lynx BMS and distributor and the VE bus BMS.

Oh wait, maybe now I understand, the Lynx BMS has an apparently expensive electrically operated battery disconnect to stop any more drain from the battery. But it does want to be able to turn the DC load off. So it must end the battery discharge due to too much 120 usage by simply disconnecting the battery and I guess that would allow shore power to continue thru the multiplus to those loads. Does this all sound correct? Time to quit thinking and just decide and order. Thanks for your input.

If you are using a Victron SmartSolar MPPT it has an allowed to charge port. In the case of a VE Bus BMS, the allowed to charge signal from the BMS can directly control the SmartSolar MPPT, you don't need a battery protect. But ... if you use some generic MPPT you could use a battery protect to provide the Allowed to Charge control separately. I'm not familiar with how to implement the Lynx BMS.

The VE Bus BMS will control the Multiplus and prevent it from charging in a battery under-temperature situation. So, if you are using an inverter or shore power to feet the Multiplus, the VE Bus BMS can still protect your batteries.

 

[joe.horton.jr]

Going to stick with Victron except the inverter behind the drivers seat. On the far left of this attachment is a scale drawing of the components on my 20 inch wide 6 ft 3 inch tall wall. Hard for a new person to judge spacing. I plan on a cover in the midsection with only a cutout exposing something that is necessary but good vertical airflow. Next is a real drawing with wire lengths, sizes and ring terminal size. A lot of planning.

 

[Jacek]

... I used a lot of busbar instead of cables to make everything much more compact than the typical approach...

I am impressed by your use of busbars/link bars to achieve compactness, and possibly better connections. Are each of the circled-ones .25"X1" and did you have any difficulty fitting two of them on a single post?

 

[jkmann]

I am impressed by your use of busbars/link bars to achieve compactness, and possibly better connections. Are each of the circled-ones .25"X1" and did you have any difficulty fitting two of them on a single post?

View attachment 187378

These are all 1/4" thick and fit easily on the post of this fuse holder (purchased from PKYS.com):

I'm not sure whether the connections are better, but the compactness is really nice.

 

[kenryan]

When using bus bars instead of cable to connect components, you need to be aware that the bus bars will not mitigate vibration. As long as both components are securely attached to the same rigid surface, this should not be a problem. But if the components are on different surfaces (for example, wall and floor or two different walls) then vibration could become an issue and even destroy a component.