Ford Transit USA Forum banner
1 - 20 of 72 Posts

· Premium Member
2020 350 HD AWD high/long.
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After searching, the forum suggested I start a new thread.

Anyone have a pointer to "how-to" design with Tnutz? Or is it simply less-expensive 80/20? (which I also don't know how to design with, and who also doesn't provide any overview/concept info for complete n00bs).

It seems as if everyone (including the Tnutz & 80/20 sites) assumes one already knows how this stuff works.

Thank you.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
While waiting for my order; been reading/viewing articles/youtubes on 80/20; slowly sinking in.

You can get some "samples" from 80/20.

The only way to learn is by reading/watching and looking at the samples - projects etc...

It is like learning how to swim; just jump in :).

Welcome to "expensive world" of 80/20.


Lee
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,064 Posts
After searching, the forum suggested I start a new thread.
Really? There is a lot of discussion and examples posted on the forum if you search for the term 8020 or maybe 80/20 too.

@orton's website has a lot of great info on it HOME | Orton Travel Transit
@natecostello's website is another great source of info https://www.greenstello.com/van/structural/structural_overview/structural
80/20 Extruded Aluminum Van Cabinets - OurKaravan is another good site as well as his YouTube
Humble Road has some good info as well https://www.youtube.com/c/HumbleRoad
OH yea 8020 has a couple of hundred videos :) https://www.youtube.com/@8020_/videos
Lot's of other stuff on YouTube for plenty of videos ... caveat emptor with that.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Thanks

I guess it's just me, but this is like asking an engineer what time it is and getting told how to build a watch. :)
Yep; pretty much how I feel :).

Maybe because there are many choices; both for the suppliers as well as how to attach them(if one has necessary tools) etc...

For me the hardest part is how to "attach" the built structure into a "van"; whether wall attachment is sufficient (and maybe re-using the built in cargo hook anchor); or need additional hook to the floor(with additional bracing needed etc...).

For size, it seems, 10 and 15 series(1 inch and 1.5 inch) are the dominant sizes that people use; 1.5 inch for the main structure and 1 inch for the upper cabinets etc...

Suppliers list: Grainger, direct 80/20, Misumi, Heitek, Amazon, McMaster-Carr; and all of the many different "brands" out there.

Tempted to order the "ourkaravan" kitchen kit - available from Heitek etc...


Thanks,
Lee
 

· Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Just look up Tnutz; I have not heard about this before
If order in volume, standard 1515-S series, including shipping ----> about $1 per inch - more or less; +/- 10% or so
slightly cheaper for other brands
8020 charges $0.82 per inch in their web site; not including shipping etc...
Tnutz charges $1.02 per inch; and it claims to be exactly compatible with 8020 brand

Try to price Grainger; by doing local pickup (so no shipping); if only buying 1-2 8 feet long piece, this makes sense; for volume, it is still cheaper to order online and pay for shipping.

A short summary of my "pricing" research; so $1 per inch for just the extrusion is a good ball park number for budgeting.


Lee
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,064 Posts
Thanks

I guess it's just me, but this is like asking an engineer what time it is and getting told how to build a watch. :)
I must have missed something. You did ask "how to design with"?

The first two links do scratch the surface of some of the technical aspect a bit, but OurKaravan and Humble Road are very much practical end user design and assembly focused. A lot of videos on 8020 YouTube show basic concepts.
If you are looking for a step by step example like Ikea or Lego the OurKaravan galley is the best example I know of to look at.

Sorry the links I provided were not helpful

.... Maybe definitely more watchmaking here, but what the heck. :)

I see from your electrical design that you are proficient with software. FWIW - I am using this clunky, old, slow to load, no longer supported software FrameXpert | Framedesigner - Download . I have never been able to figure out Sketchup or any 3d cad for that matter, but for some reason I have been able to wrestle with this not very user friendly program.

IMO, nice thing about this program is that it has all of the extrusions and connectors built in, so you can learn about how the parts play together/configure with the stuff. It has been immensely helpful for me to deal with the 3d aspect of the project. Especially helpful since my goal of a unitized structure is admittedly complex. The other nice thing that make the tiresome effort of working with it worthwhile is that it creates a complete parts list with weights and costs from 8020 and assembly drawings. So if you can dial in your design and are willing to pay a supplier for machining then it become a bolt together project. (other than the not insignificant issue of connecting to to the van). Also it should make it easy to get quotes from multiple suppliers. No doubt more work upfront, but should payback many times in the execution.

The attached file "box" is the first drawing I made when I was just starting to learn the program. It is helpful to understand the output from the program. Note how it helped my make the box with all exposed sides with no slots and all connections not visible but still accessible. The file "van" is where I am at with my admittedly complex unitized structure. Just a wild guess that there is around 40 hrs (??) of work with the program to get from "box" to "van" (... and a zillion hours of "research" and 8020 rattling around in my empty skull, but a lot of that is really more to do with conceptual layout that would apply regardless of the materials I chose for the structure).

I am now just starting to build a wooden prototype of the structure to dial in the dimensions and adjust for any conflicts with the van envelope.

BTW - this is my very expensive Swiss made Meylan Snapmater stopwatch that I used for my job "back in the day". :geek: Yes it goes to 100! :unsure: Now a $50 curiosity item on Ebay.

Watch Clock Measuring instrument Font Pocket watch
 

Attachments

· Registered
2020 High-Extended AWD EcoBoost Cargo with windows
Joined
·
5,264 Posts
After searching, the forum suggested I start a new thread.

Anyone have a pointer to "how-to" design with Tnutz? Or is it simply less-expensive 80/20? (which I also don't know how to design with, and who also doesn't provide any overview/concept info for complete n00bs).

It seems as if everyone (including the Tnutz & 80/20 sites) assumes one already knows how this stuff works.

Thank you.
In case is isn't clear / obvious... 8020 is to this particular extruded aluminum shape / design as Kleenex is to tissue. No meaningful difference (for design or function reasons) between 8020 versus T-nuts or the others. I've used four different brands and metric and imperial sizes and they're all similar - though not all the same. (Also used 8020's Quick Frame - very different.) From a design perspective, the key to them is the angled-in slots, which (theoretically) allow a connection to be more secure by creating tension on the fastener. This is from 8020's educational stuff:

Product Font Motor vehicle Electronic device Input device


All four of the brands I've used share this basic design - in all the profiles I've used.

I think the 8020 education stuff is a good introduction to the hows and whys of it. Their online book is a great guide.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the model is great for prototyping / design stuff - as they point out. It's very easy to build something then disassemble it, re-cut things and make it completely different without wasting ALL the previous work and material.


Curiosity, @Visian: are you familiar with building things from scratch with wood? Or some other material?

I ask because we've had a lot of people stop and look at the stuff we've built in our driveway over the last few years and they almost always have the same questions: "so is this a kit?" Which makes me assume that it's a common thought - that building things is not dissimilar to assembling an Ikea cabinet. But you ask the right question: how to design? And it makes me realize that designing and building and assembling are three very different things.

Maybe all of us here are answering a build or assemble question and you're looking for how one might /start/ to design such a thing? If so, back to the common-ground question: what are you accustomed to designing? If you're not, then that might lead to different places and things to learn.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
451 Posts
I'll try and post some targeted pages focused on how we got from design to complete with 8020:
1. We worked out our arrangement. Its covered in more detail than you want here.
2. Based on the arrangement and the constraints of the van, we worked out our 8020 structural design (and built a mockup).
3. We assembled and installed.

A simple three-step process. Seriously though, for us the key tool was a sketch model of our design and the van shell built from measurements we took at a dealer (also available in the detailed arrangement page above) which let us iterate. We also assumed 8020 from the start, so it was part of the arrangement too...just not finalized, but in as a space/place holder.

Also note, we had never designed or built anything out of 8020 before this van. We read all the stuff that you are probably finding (and has been linked by others here).

If it seems hard and complicated, thats because it is. Its work, no different from real day job design work. Lots of attention to detail. But its for yourself, so rewarding in a different way. I smile every time I reach up and turn off my reading light before going to bed, because the switch is exactly where and how I wanted and envisioned it. So, very hard, but worth it.

Hope that helps.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
142 Posts
When I arrived at the stage you seem to be at (paralysis by analysis) I had the good fortune to stumble across Humble Road's YouTube 8020 how-to. From watching that single video a few times (less than an hour total time invested) it became clear that I was making things way too complicated. I realized that I didn't need to teach myself some CAD program I had never seen before. I simply didn't need perfectly rendered drawings to figure out how to build, support and connect my structures. In truth - you don't even need a rough sketch.

After watching that video I grabbed some 2X10's, ripped them into roughly the size of 15 series 8020 and started assembling. Once I had the mock-ups built (and tweaked to the final dimensions) it was a very simple matter to put together an exact cut list for extrusions, connectors, hardware, etc. I ordered everything from 8020 - cut and milled for internal fasteners. Everything was perfect and went together like a kit.

It's shockingly simple. Easier than building out of wood by a long shot.
 

· Registered
2020 High-Extended AWD EcoBoost Cargo with windows
Joined
·
5,264 Posts
Well ... actually configuration design. One of the advantages is that eliminates simplifies a lot of the "real" engineering stuff.
Sorta like LEGO ... before they were pre-configured kits with instructions. :ROFLMAO:
I mean... maybe that's a factor? 🤔

Part of me thinks that since Tinkertoys, Erector Sets and Lego weren't "kits" when we were using them as kids... but most of those folks who asked if our van building was a kit were my age or older. And a pile of lumber as a kid seemed just as straight-forward as those "toys" to build a bike jump, tree-house, or skate-ramp. So... prolly more that some of us are drawn to these building toys/tools in some way.

Back to nature/nurture, in some ways: I wonder how many of us feel immediately comfortable with assembling whatever we see in our heads from whatever pile of materials we have access to? For that matter, how many of us "see in our heads" what we want and can picture it in 3D?

That "seeing it in 3D part"... OMG... that does NOT work for my wife. For decades now... we've built houses, vans, offices, and re-built / remodeled multiple houses and a 2D drawing might as well be a bowl of fruit for all it does for her ability to envision the outcome. I started doing 3D designs for remodels for her benefit and the outcome was hilarious: "well, I think that looks okay... but that's not the color of counter-top I was thinking." AUGH! It's a model! Using the stock materials! Okay... back to work... creating new textures for the models... now? "Is that actually what it will look like out the window?" Whaaaa??? Okay... insert actual photo from that point-of-view and insert as visible through said window. "But why is it daylight out? It's night now." 🤣

Ultimately, the 3D thing really helped her understand what we were building in advance. It made me realize that she was working from nearly zero perspective in the past. But it also illustrated very clearly for me just how different our experiences are with this stuff.


@IsleofMan, I concur: as much as I have become accustomed to 2D/3D modeling for other spaces, I go 2D pencil sketch for the van, then cardboard and/or 1x2s.


For "here's how it worked for us" experience / thoughts:

This was first take on bed and galley - 1x2 construction to see in-van real-world. It was really helpful and useful to see what was going to be done differently. The galley was too deep; but the bed seemed good. So we moved to next phase with the bed.
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Hood Vehicle Automotive lighting


This was first take on the bed in 8020 (or whatever brand). What you see here was then disassembled and changed a bit.
Wood Engineering Machine Metal Building


That confirmed that the basic bed design - including raise / lower functions were viable. But also confirmed that the leg mounting method needed some work. And established a starting point that nudged us toward making it "couch mode" as well as up/down. In this photo, the leg positions have been moved - though not to where they eventually ended up; but it again helped to see.
Automotive lighting Hood Motor vehicle Automotive tire Vehicle



Galley went from 1x2 to 8020 frame - then inserted mandatory pieces to test layout / usability. Maxxfan frame substituting for as-yet-undelivered sink in this photo. random pieces of wood holding the cook-top in place. Observation: mostly going to work; espresso machine is REALLY low - how to raise it up?
Motor vehicle Naval architecture Gas Engineering Machine


Testing space and function with fridge base (future electrical cabinet) in place. Observe sticks of 8020 on the floor - used to test things while "configuration design" working. 😄
Window Engineering Wood Plant Machine


Modify and further building galley frame (in the garage - to be moved back into the van later).
Wood Automotive exterior Gas Asphalt Road surface


Flipping back to fridge / electrical cabinet: progressing by dropping in the largest pieces and testing the space for the smaller pieces - same model as the galley.
Gas Rectangle Machine Composite material Automotive exterior


Further progress: galley functional but no testing first cover panel. Fridge and electronics in use. Ultimately got rid of those panels - just didn't look good. And the counter-top was a "temporary" 1/2" ply that stayed or over a year.
Gas Composite material Engineering Machine Metal


I won't post ALL the various stages and steps; but after a year-and-a-half of usage, decided to ditch the propane and go all-electric. Pulled the galley out and rebuilt it (actually just added 1-2 pieces of 8020) and then rebuilt the covers and a new counter-top. All part of the process and the beauty of working with 8020. All the panels pop off - held on with dual-lock velcro.
Cabinetry Wood Wood stain Kitchen appliance Drawer


And you can see the fridge/electrical cabinet has the same panels on it. And the 8020 shower skinned with Lexan panels. And the upper cabinets built with the same method.
Building Interior design Sink Automotive design Countertop



This stuff IS Tinkertoys / Lego - but just the raw materials. I think the couple of folks that mention Humble Road are on a helpful track: each step - including all of his - is one easy step; the finished product is whatever you can envision and execute. I hope this step-by-step (while leaving out a bit in the middle) was helpful for anyone who hasn't done this yet.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,064 Posts
I wonder how many of us feel immediately comfortable with assembling whatever we see in our heads from whatever pile of materials we have access to? For that matter, how many of us "see in our heads" what we want and can picture it in 3D?
Well I suppose the approach and methods may not only depend on the individual work preferences and skill sets but the specifics of the project. "CAD" is not my forte but I found that it was really necessary for the complexity of what I am planning. Has not been an easy slog, but rewarding, hopefully more so when it become a physical reality. My hope is that one I have a framework, then the build can slowly as a series of MANY "smaller" projects to fill it in ... one bite as a time hopefully I can stay motivated. Maybe I should get my (CPPM) wife to make me a PERT chart. :unsure:

I've been able to evolve the design a lot this way. Also iterative with the dimensions of a lot of the components I need to fit into the structure. Also trying to fit too much into a 148 non-EL. But hey that's part of the fun ... right? There was a lot of component research, rough sketching and postulating/discussing things very rough mock ups in the van with boxes, 2x2's, plywood saw horses to get a sense of scale/space/ergonomics before/during the drawing process. 🤯

Rectangle Parallel Font Drawing Metal
 

· Registered
Joined
·
449 Posts
I think the responses above are excellent. When you have your 8020 skeleton sketched up, use the deflection calculator on the 8020 site to refine spacing and material sizes. This stuff is remarkably strong (and heavy)! Easy to over-design...
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: IsleofMan

· Administrator
Joined
·
2,829 Posts
Thanks

I guess it's just me, but this is like asking an engineer what time it is and getting told how to build a watch. :)
No, that's like asking "How to Design" a watch and being told how to build a watch when you meant to ask where can I buy a watch.

If you want to design your solution, then the CAD files for all 8020 items are available at Free Drawing Files|CAD Libraries|80/20 T-slot Building Systems . Also on the 8020 site is the 80/20 University where you can learn how to design using their products. These skills work with any extruded aluminum products.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,064 Posts
This stuff is remarkably strong (and heavy)! Easy to over-design...
The crazy structure in my drawing is about 8ft long x 2.5-3 ft tall x 5.5 wide overall dimensions . It weighs 200 lbs in 1515L including all the fasteners. I'll add that it's not cheap at $2K list price from 8020 including all the machining.
But but IMO when you use strength as the denominator it is not so heavy or expensive and is (hopefully) a time saver.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,757 Posts
50 Feet of 2 inch aluminum angle was $125 dollars but you have to buy it in 25 foot sections, Hauling it home was a good first use for my new roof rack.
I used the aluminum angle to bolt sections of plywood together to make cabinets and and a bed, If I ever have a desire to it will be easy to take apart.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Any detailed photos on the extrusion attachment methods to the van wall/floor ?

Given the floor/wall is not always straight, some shimming must be needed ?

And how many/much attachments are needed ?

Do you use backing plate for the attachment to the wall/floor ?

I would assume, it would be recommended to use the "Cargo anchor points" as additional ways to secure the build/structure ?


Thanks,
Lee
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top