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Simple thermal bridging question.... I hope

5K views 55 replies 24 participants last post by  spin-dry 
#1 ·
If my van is insulated like the picture below what could I stick on the bare metal parts to try and mitigate some of the thermal transfer? I know I cannot stop it but just to reduce it a little. I know I have seen vans insulated completely with some thin foil looking stuff just stuck to the van. What is that stuff and would it create a bit of a thermal break?

Please don't turn this into a insulation rant. I just want to block a little of the thermal transfer.

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#5 ·
Maybe I should have worded it different. Not really about insulation as much as just want to cover the bare metal with where I will not have insulation.
Every thread I searched was about the insulation and I have read most of them on here in the last year and half so yes I know they can get crazy and very opinionated. I will have wall panels over the bare metal but wanted to see if there was something thin to stick to it to help.

Thanks for taking the time to give me a useless answer.
 
#3 ·
If my van is insulated like the picture below what could I stick on the bare metal parts to try and mitigate some of the thermal transfer? I know I cannot stop it but just to reduce it a little. I know I have seen vans insulated completely with some thin foil looking stuff just stuck to the van. What is that stuff and would it create a bit of a thermal break?
Looks very similar to where I'm headed on my insulation journey.

I'm planning to use Neoprene on the bare metal parts as documented in @natecostello 's excellent documentation: https://www.greenstello.com/blog/2021-10-9-neoprene-thinsulate-felt/wall-treatments/

Doesn't really count as "insulation" (no published R-value) but should reduce thermal bridging.
 
#7 ·
We still need to cover the "window frames", pillars, and doors. I'm going on the theory that almost anything will be better than bare metal. Pillars will probably be the same carpet we used on the lower walls/bed support. It has no stretch so we can only use it for straight (more or less) areas. I've got extra fabric in both our gray and teal colors but haven't decided which to use or exactly how to sew something for the window frame areas. The rear and slider doors have me stumped too. But a lot of our indecision is due to a combination of not wanting to add a fourth material and a really, really, really low budget. We'll get there eventually.

IF I were not constrained by my prior choices, I'd go with trunk liner or automotive tweed fabric and glue it on. Something with give and stretch to cover all those curves.
 
#8 ·
The trendy thing to do is to use Low-E, the "thin foil looking stuff" you mention. That's duct insulation, just foil around a very thin layer of closed cell foam. The foil doesn't do anything in that application and you'd be better off just using closed cell foam.

There's a lot of different options for closed cell foam, EPDM and rubberized foam and hybrids thereof probably being best. (Ensolite, Aerocel, Neoprene)

Here's a good source for Ensolite:
Same company also sells Ensolite with adhesive backing. I've seen @AVC RIG using this exact stuff to insulate pillars and other exposed metal.
 
#9 ·
The trendy thing to do is to use Low-E, the "thin foil looking stuff" you mention. That's duct insulation, just foil around a very thin layer of closed cell foam. The foil doesn't do anything in that application and you'd be better off just using closed cell foam.

There's a lot of different options for closed cell foam, EPDM and rubberized foam and hybrids thereof probably being best. (Ensolite, Aerocel, Neoprene)

Here's a good source for Ensolite:
Same company also sells Ensolite with adhesive backing. I've seen @AVC RIG using this exact stuff to insulate pillars and other exposed metal.
That might be just what I need. Just something to cover the metal in hidden locations. I hope to have has much insulation as I can in there but in some places it is just not going to cover the bare metal.

Thank you for the link
 
#14 ·
I don't know how much thermal value it would provide anywhere but on bare metal.

One thing to think about is that Ensolite and similar materials are the closed cell foam marketed for automotive sound deadening. In that case, they serve as a mechanical isolation layer that prevents rattling. I guess having Ensolite between your wallboards and whatever other rigid spots would prevent vibration noises.
 
#16 ·
Please don't turn this into a insulation rant. I just want to block a little of the thermal transfer. Here is some investigating that I recently did.
Search for "thermal break" and/or "thermal bridge". 🤯
So far I have come across 3 4 different closed cell foam that people in the forum have used in vans
As to these "rubber" insulation products: k-flex being NBR/PVC, Aeroflex being EDPM, and I will add in "Minicell" **
being XLPE. Aeroflex has some interesting marketing literature on the "superiority of EDPM over NBR/PVC.
The polarity issue is a new one to me. Here is a comparison sheet from and Indian "Aeroflex" manufacturer that also indicates that EDPM is superior than both NBR/PVC and XLPE. Certainly some due diligence research for independent objective info would be prudent. All said, even if these comparisons are valid, I wouldn't sweat (bad pun?) the installed K-Flex as the differences don't seem all that significant ... as I sorta infer ... marketing literature ... that is probably making a big deal over little differences.
As mentioned above, also neoprene which I did not include in the above comment.

Looking at 3 members who do their homework.
@ArgonautVans = NBR/PVC
@natecostello = neoprene
@orton = EDPM
countless use XLPE in the floor - typically the generic stuff most often misleadingly marketed as Minicell (Minicel with one L is a trademarked brand name)

My guess is that for suitability for this application they may very well be more similar than different.

Hey, what's with the white seat bases?
 
#17 ·
I probably would have gone aeroflex if I had access to it locally, but it was 1.5x the price and two-three weeks out compared to k-flex I could get at grainger the next day.

I found reports of people using k-flex to insulate their aluminum hulled boats who had no issues after years in use and that was good enough for me. Also no rubber smell compared to aeroflex is good
 
#32 ·
I probably would have gone aeroflex if I had access to it locally, but it was 1.5x the price and two-three weeks out compared to k-flex I could get at grainger the next day.

I found reports of people using k-flex to insulate their aluminum hulled boats who had no issues after years in use and that was good enough for me. Also no rubber smell compared to aeroflex is good
Aeroflex is used by breweries for tank and pipe insulation. Since we have a lot of breweries in our area, I found a local distributer to eliminate shipping. Was in stock at the supplier in SF bay area.

Did not have any smell issues with Aeroflex after installation with wall covering. Maybe I am not sensitive to any smell?

No issues after 7 years.
 
#21 · (Edited)
1/8" industrial felt has an r-value of about 0.5, which is helpful a a thermal break and for sound deadening. It's widely available and can be purchased either with adhesive backing or installed with various glue products.
That works out to about the same as 1/8 of neoprene I believe.

Since it came up earlier: We used either neoprene or felt to cover all the exposed metal that wasn't already going to be directly insulated by thinsulate or the floor (excluding the back doors and slider, still working out the solution for those). Primarily the goal was just to prevent any direct convection between cold metal and ambient and to limit condensation formation. None of the neoprene is really visible, as its all covered by cabinetry or wall and ceiling panels (which provide more insulation). It was really a defense in depth approach. We'd do it again.
 
#22 ·
If you are sincerely worried about the negative effects of thermal bridging, I would recommend reaching out to local upfitters in your area and taking time to talk to them about how they're mitigating the issue.

I've done the same in my area and another area where we travel every summer and visit a very well known upfitter and the answer is the same - there's no concern regarding thermal bridging because there's no real issue there.

That's also why I don't bother with worrying about thermal bridging.
 
#23 ·
If you are sincerely worried about the negative effects of thermal bridging, I would recommend reaching out to local upfitters in your area and taking time to talk to them about how they're mitigating the issue.

I've done the same in my area and another area where we travel every summer and visit a very well known upfitter and the answer is the same - there's no concern regarding thermal bridging because there's no real issue there.

That's also why I don't bother with worrying about thermal bridging.
That is a good idea except we will be traveling all of North America so what they do here will be different than everywhere else. If I was using it for local that would be a great idea.
thank you
 
#27 ·
Skip it…just maybe perhaps it would be worthwhile if you spent camping all winter in very
cold places and long winters maybe then it could make a little difference other wise I think
it would be a waste of time…..I think it be more worth while to stuff all hollow cavity’s that
it seems a lot people skip like the ceiling frames …get a bicycle housing Cable and paint
stir sticks …I did all those areas and it takes a little while but not really bad once you get
some practice …
 
#29 ·
FWIW... I figure it just looks nicer - more "finished" - than all the bare metal still showing in our otherwise basically finished rig. 🤷‍♀️

I really don't expect any functional improvements from covering the bare metal bits. In fact, it'll probably be functionally inferior - something to get dirty. 😏
 
#30 ·
FWIW... I figure it just looks nicer - more "finished" - than all the bare metal still showing in our otherwise basically finished rig. 🤷‍♀️

I really don't expect any functional improvements from covering the bare metal bits. In fact, it'll probably be functionally inferior - something to get dirty. 😏
On advantage of neoprene over the other closed cell compressible flexible foam (CCCFF) in an exposed application is there are color options in the fabric covered variant. Maybe camo to hide the dirt. :)
 
#33 ·
Perhaps a thick paint, such as those used for sound reduction or similar.

This outfit makes all kinds of coatings - some might be what you need.


I have not used that particular coat material but have used some of their other products with good success.

If you call them, they answer the phone, the sales lady that answered the phone really knew her stuff, and consulted with the applications engineers for a specific question. So I was pretty happy.
 
#35 ·
Perhaps a thick paint, such as those used for sound reduction or similar.

This outfit makes all kinds of coatings - some might be what you need.


I have not used that particular coat material but have used some of their other products with good success.

If you call them, they answer the phone, the sales lady that answered the phone really knew her stuff, and consulted with the applications engineers for a specific question. So I was pretty happy.
I did paint the inside of my roof with one of their products. Ceramic balls mixed in the paint. Two coats. Lots of posts stating that there is no benefit derived from the insulatiing paint. My only test was painting 1/2 of the sloped roof and parking the van toward the sun. Very scientific test with my hand. Painted side was not as hot as the unpainted side.
 
#39 ·
We're planning to use 1/4" closed cell foam (2lb density) to cover as much of the metal as possible in hopes of -

a)providing a thermal break
b)limiting the hot/cold air of the van from contacting the cold/hot metal of the van as much as possible and limiting condensation surfaces
c)slight sound control
d)whatever slight insulating value it may offer

We haven't yet gotten into the walls/ceiling so unsure how it will go. Did buy some Weldwood Landau Top and Trim to adhere the CCF (and thinsulate after the CCF). We're still figuring out our process, would prefer not to brush/roller it on, however, we only have a small, 6 or 8 gallon air compressor. Think it would probably burn this little compressor up, so may see if I can rent a larger one and buy a couple of HVLP sprayers. We've got an electric sprayer that was given to us some time ago, but feel like it's a no go due to the flammability of the Weldwood.

I'm unsure how much value we'll gain in the above listed reasons to do this and I didn't have much luck finding adhesive backed CCF, neoprene, ensolite, etc that wasn't higher in price than I really wanted to go with this being somewhat unknown in value. Unless I find a better option, we're just using the 2LB Crosslinked Polyethylene from the Foam Factory and hopefully spraying adhesive. I'm sure dhesive backed would be easier if I could find a price point I liked.
 
#49 ·
I placed Owens Corning FoamSealR from Home Depot against all metal surfaces that were exposed and without insulation before I applied any finishing material. It provides the thermal bridging you are looking for and also helps cushion wood or any other material that is applied.
 
#50 ·
Wood. You're almost certainly going to use furring strips anyway & they are a great thermal break. Certainly neoprene material is also a good break, but applying it in a thermally effective depth runs contrary to the structural rigidity you'd like to have in your walls.

In our van, the furring is 3/4" plywood strips. 1/2" would also suffice for a decent thermal break, but since you want to screw stuff into your furring strips, 1/2" is mighty thin (since wood screws taper, you're only getting about 1/4" of bite). In our case, I used thin (~1/4") sheathing for interior walls, so the whole wall thickness is still relatively modest.

Since you don't want a rigorous analysis of the various options, I'm not offering one. Just pointing out a simple, practical, cost effective option (that most builders either chose or have by dint of just building their walls).
 
#52 ·
I have a 130" passenger van conversion. I used insulate 600 on the walls and ceiling. The floor is 1" XPS with 1/2" plywood. With the windows covered and running a Webasto gasoline heater I can live comfortably in -17F w/howling wind. It actually gets too hot with the heater on high. I'm very pleased with the result.
 
#55 ·
"Grumpy Illuminati" is what I call them.

I used some of that self stick duct insulation in some areas. In retrospect I think I worried about thermal bridging too much. You really just want to limit how much air can circulate against bare metal as volumes of humid air will result in condensation problems. It can't be perfect and it doesn't need to be. The best thing is to limit the introduction of humidity into the van in the first place and/or adequate ventilation. Cook outside, sleep with vents/windows open, etc. Warm bed clothes, a hat, and some thin wool gloves make for nice sleeping.
 
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