Ford Transit USA Forum banner
41 - 60 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,070 Posts
@Checkswrecks Great video's. Thanks.
The first one looks like the steel cabinets with L- brackets that seem to deform to absorb a lot of the load. I sure seem makes sense to attach to the wall with the bracket in that vertical orientation than horizontal as I have seen most.

The second on appears to be set up (construction and installation) for the maximum possible failure. While I am in agreement with you that there are many materials that are better to use than wood, it is certainly possible to do much better with wood than what is in that video. I won't call it propaganda, because there is certainly a lot from that video about how not to do things if someone chose to build with wood

Can you point me to where I can search for more of these types of videos or good search terms other than what might be obvious to a layman?
 

·
Registered
2016 148MR Cargo
Joined
·
544 Posts
Youtube van wood rack crash test

Here's another fail with what appears to be a stronger set of racks, but again it is an ad for a metal shelving system: (turn the annoying audio off)


The following advertising video MAY show that wood can be used successfully with enough engineering thought about attachment to structure and where loads will go. However, looking at the stop, I don't think this was done at the required 48kph/30mph. Regardless, it is a LOT better than a lot of the wood builds seen here on the forum, so may provide some ideas to copy.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
I didn't feel we were arguing -- simply clarifying differing opinions. And after watching those two videos I think it's important to make one last clarification to my opinion ...'cause we're likely much more in agreement than not.

We're discussing two entirely different uses of wood...the designs in the video are NOT what I've proposed as a reasonable use of wood! :) Those are not small surfaced face frames attached to any sort of metal skeleton. Those were specifically designed to hawk a metal rack system...and as such were perfect to demonstrate a terrible alternative...sort of like an infomercial showing the alternative in frustrating black and white...as if comparing scissors to a butter knife rather than just a different pair of scissors.

Cheers,
 

·
Registered
2016 148MR Cargo
Joined
·
544 Posts
Jeff -

All good and sorry if I created a stir, as my entry into this thread was about the post mentioning 90G of force. You happened to get involved because I mentioned that the 4G value you cited looked reasonable for the roll scenario. Note that the steel rack videos I showed were picked because they were NOT the really stout ones, they showed what could be done with simpler construction. As for 8020, it's made for stationary uses and there's no vehicle crash test data - good or bad - that I found.

fwiw - I'll have some wood for cabinet doors and such, like you, mine will just be in a welded frame with numerous attachment points.

Bob / CW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
192 Posts
The way I look at it, there's always that weak link that has a possibility as a point of failure. My build comes down to the individual brackets I'm using to connect all my 8020 together. I'm planning on using some 45 degree beams to try and prevent the cabinets from buckling under severe force.

I'm attaching all cabinets to L-Track that's bolted to at least six Plus Nuts for each piece. The heavy cabinets will attach to two separate pieces of L-Track, one vertical and one horizontal. So those L-Track bolts might actually be the real weak link.

I wasn't going to attach to the floor, but now I'm having second thoughts after seeing all those crash videos. Gonna put my thinking cap on and ponder this one for a while...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,070 Posts
[
Jeff -

All good and sorry if I created a stir, as my entry into this thread was about the post mentioning 90G of force. You happened to get involved because I mentioned that the 4G value you cited looked reasonable for the roll scenario. Note that the steel rack videos I showed were picked because they were NOT the really stout ones, they showed what could be done with simpler construction. As for 8020, it's made for stationary uses and there's no vehicle crash test data - good or bad - that I found.

fwiw - I'll have some wood for cabinet doors and such, like you, mine will just be in a welded frame with numerous attachment points.

Bob / CW
I did not see the 4G mentioned as a purely a rollover force, it was pointed by @JeffWest as a general factor used in their build. I prefaced my question with "I might be all wet" and then referred to force levels I hade seen in some crash reports to try and understand why there was order of magnitude differences. You conferred with their estimate, and I basically said sounds like 2 knowledgeable opinion are good for me to go forward with. The last video you posted, now has me wondering. The 50km/h dead stop is shown as 20G. I assume that is the essentially the force transferred through to the structures. Again, I may be all wet, but I believe the G forces in a "dead stop" accident are geometric with speed. It seems to me that there could be 20G of force on the structures in a survivable crash. I'd like to think that the EU test parameters have some practical basis. I am not trying to challenge you or "win" an argument here. Just trying to come to a better understanding of the physics. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

That plywood structure is really interesting. I looked up the company. There is not much good info to be gleaned. The few photos are not high resolution. It actually looks like some of the structure may even be fastened into the end grain. They do show an exploded view of the plywood. I looks like it has on the order of 20 plies!

146664

The videos of the wheelchair mountings are really enlightening as it relates to floor attachment. I am going to study them some more and rethink my floor design (materials and attachment). Thanks for posting this great information
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,547 Posts
Interesting discussion about designing for a crash.

I did not put much thought into that aspect when building the conversion. Did want everything anchored well to the van body but primarily wanted to make it easy to mount the cabinets to the floor. Also wanted an insulated floor and a path to run electrical cords in the floor from driver side to passenger side. The end result was building a 80/20 floor frame that is bolted to all the D-ring tie down locations and four through the floor bolts. The frame width is wall to wall and the length is from just behind the seats to in front of the rear doors. Do not believe the floor frame would move in a crash unless it was directly impacted.

See middle picture in third row for floor frame design:

Floor | Orton Travel Transit (ortontransit.info)

The cabinets that touch the floor are all bolted to the floor frame in multiple locations. The top of the floor to ceiling refrigerator/shower cabinet bolts to the ceiling ribs. The cabinet is also bolted to the van wall in 3 places. The two bench seat cabinets are bolted to the floor frame and to the van walls. The driver side also bolts to the refrigerator/shower cabinet. The passenger side bench seat bolts to the sink cabinet. The sink cabinet bolts to the floor frame and at one location to the van wall. Do not believe any of this large interconnected structure would move substantially in an accident.

There are two upper rear cabinets that each hold six metal rod baskets. Baskets retained my a 1" lip. The driver side front frame of the cabinet bolts to the roof ribs in three places. Thermally isolated from the van steel with 1/2" plywood spacers between the roof angle and the top extrusion of the cabinet front frame. Suspect these small plywood hangers could fail. The driver side upper cabinet bolts to the refrigerator/shower cabinet and is blocked from forward movement. The passenger side upper cabinet is not blocked by a floor to ceiling cabinet. The two upper cabinets are connected by a 80/20 extrusion bolted between the cabinets at the back doors. So the weak part of the design is the upper cabinet on the passenger side. Would be stronger if I had included another across the van extrusion at the front end of the upper cabinets. Baskets could come out in a rollover but doubt they would come out in a front collision.

A rollover could create projectiles. The three sink cabinet drawers could come out, the refrigerator could easily come out and the sink door could open. The two plastic totes stored in the shower would come out and possibly the portapotti, waste basket and the propane storage ammo can. The 80/20 refrigerator/shower cabinet that spans floor to roof would help prevent the roof from collapsing.

Another set of pictures:

Upper Rear | Orton Travel Transit (ortontransit.info)

So my conclusion is the 80/20 structure all interconnected, bolted to the floor, bolted to the roof ribs and bolted to the walls is better than individual cabinets. The floor frame is very important. Even with the 80/20 structure there are issues with stored items.

Hope not to test the design.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,070 Posts
Interesting discussion about designing for a crash.....
Hope not to test the design.
That's the best plan! I hope the oncoming vehicles are in on the plan.
It's really difficult to even figure out what "makes sense". I lieu of any sophisticated modelling and testing, I think that your approach of unitizing the structures can have a great benefit (depending on the detail of the execution). Did you look at the other videos on the Dahl Engineering YouTube site. Quite enlightening. I am now thinking of bolting the bottom rails of the cabinets through the floor with some backing plates.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I used 15 series in my build. I've used 10 series at work and found that assemblies end up being too flexy no matter what joint connectors are used. View attachment 146532
I really like the design. Do you have any other pictures? Maybe some showing the connections between the different 15 series members? Maybe something with the parts flipped into place?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
I am currently building with it and have no concern with the strength of 10 series and I am designing with aesthetics in mind over structural design. The ability to make and modify your own connectors and fittings is essential to save $$$.
I am having trouble locating materials for my panels in the color and finish I am looking for but nothing a drum sander will not fix, I'm also still madly searching for hinges to work the way I would like.
So far I am sticking to my plans but currently on hold waiting for my 3rd order due to bad counting and modifying.
View attachment 146456
Hi, I am very interested in learning more about your use of 1010 and how it is working for you. Thanks
 

·
Registered
2020 148 Mid-Roof AWD Crew
Joined
·
142 Posts
Harry, feel free to send me a message with any of your questions.
I am really happy with the results, learned a few things along they way and would make some minor modifications next time, but for the most part it turned out really well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Harry, feel free to send me a message with any of your questions.
I am really happy with the results, learned a few things along they way and would make some minor modifications next time, but for the most part it turned out really well.
Might an interested third party request, once the questions are posed and answered, if any information might help a larger audience, that it be posted to the thread as well? This is very helpful stuff, and I'd love to learn more.

Thanks
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
Might an interested third party request, once the questions are posed and answered, if any information might help a larger audience, that it be posted to the thread as well? This is very helpful stuff, and I'd love to learn more.

Thanks
Take a look at post #25 of this thread for a lot of the info:


I am placing an order for some 10 series today. It takes time to get parts but when it comes in I will post a photo of the prototype of what I am attempting to build. (errors and all)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
Might an interested third party request, once the questions are posed and answered, if any information might help a larger audience, that it be posted to the thread as well? This is very helpful stuff, and I'd love to learn more.

Thanks
I have some (modest amount) with the 1515 size material, but it has all been on top of the roof for solar panel mounting.

It isn't particularly difficult, but it takes time to dig through the various options.

Here are some examples on my web store of roof mount use.


Rough numbers, the 1515 rail is a little under $1 / inch if you can buy it locally from a distributor.

The larger expense is really all of the connectors. By the time you purchase an external corner connection, T nuts and the associated bolts, it can approach $10 / corner sometimes. It adds up pretty fast but assembly is also fairly straightforward other than the interface to the van's contours.

This web site sells materials and has quite a few short videos on how to use the material and build from it.


Edit - here is an example van build with a lot of 8020:


And of course Dave Orton's Transit van is a prime example (Orton is in post #56 here)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,547 Posts
You can save time and money by making your own connectors and buying your fasteners from an industrial fasteners supplier. Series 15 allows less expensive connectors.

If you want strong joints with 10 series then the ends of the extrusion should be machined for the internal connector like #3662. Cost savings by using 10 series is reduced due to the fastener cost and the required machining. I would not use simple connectors with the 10 series.


15 series makes installing hinges for doors and adding panels easier.

15 series extrusions are overkill for strength but have stronger connections than 10 series.
 

·
Registered
2020 148 Mid-Roof AWD Crew
Joined
·
142 Posts
Might an interested third party request, once the questions are posed and answered, if any information might help a larger audience, that it be posted to the thread as well? This is very helpful stuff, and I'd love to learn more.

Thanks
I'm not much of a preacher more like the quiet guy in the back, it's all pretty straight forward with lots of info already out there. Orton has 99% of the info you need, if he just had a picture of the the inside of the Slamlatch and the catch on the inside of the cabinet he'd be 100% - Just sayin' Orton.
Bazz99 is also doing a great job of documenting his build to give you some ideas
https://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/threads/2020-awd-transit-van-build-with-8020.81650

Tips I can offer are:

A Non-Ferrous Diablo blade in a chop saw cuts the aluminum like butter.
Interrupted cuts for the anchor fasteners require a sturdy drill press.
A ratcheting screw driver with ball end hex heads will be your best friend (if your using hex fasteners, of course).
and, Don't worry if your not familiar with how it all works, you'll take it apart and put it back together so many times you will become a master
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
I did mostly 10 series for my build. My aluminum structure is much more complicated than most I’ve seen, I would have lots a ton of space, gained a lot of weight, and spent a lot more with 15 series. I did choose to do my roof rack in 15 series.

Using mostly 1020 series has turned out to be very handy, I would highly recommend that over 1010 or 1515. All my Blum cabinet hinges mount with proper spacing in the second slot (1.5” from the front face frame of the cabinets), and the southco slam latch catches line up with the first gap as well (no extra metal catch needed). Plus 1020 is stiffer and lighter in bending than 1515.

Corner joints, with a 2x2” gusset and double economy t-nut, or 1x1” gusset with a roll in t-nut, with allow screws, are around $4.25 a pop with all the hardware combined. t-nutz was great, they completed an order with hundreds of different pieces and size and not one was off or missing. Highly recommend letting them cut for you. Perfectly square corners and structure every time

I’ll have to post videos and whatnot eventually of how I did my frame and am connecting the the walls and keeping the upper cabinet straight
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
If you want strong joints with 10 series then the ends of the extrusion should be machined for the internal connector like #3662. Cost savings by using 10 series is reduced due to the fastener cost and the required machining. I would not use simple connectors with the 10 series.
Question for all those with more 8020 experience than I have: When prepping a strut for an anchor fastener, is it necessary to literally machine the hole near the end, or will a steady drill-press suffice for the task?
 
41 - 60 of 99 Posts
Top