I look forward to responses as I was considering JUST factorty rear air to cool down during a HOT day, and a MaxxAir Fan for night. Would anyone comment how long you can run a MAXXfan on the dual factory OEM batteries?
Review of rear air conditioning
Soon I will order a Transit high roof with the long wheel base. I am thinking about the relative merits of the factory ~$900 rear air conditioner option vs the non-factory ~$5000 roof mounted unit+battery+inverter combo option. I scrolled through about two dozen threads and did not find a good evaluation of the rear factory air unit. I see some people saying it works less well when the engine is idling. My question is this: If I park this van in the hot summer heat and run the engine to run the front and rear air conditioner, will it keep my van cool while it is parked? I will have a white van and I will put in good thermal insulation. Please share your experiences with the factory rear air conditioner option. If it is not going to keep my well insulated white high roof long van cool while parked, I think I should go for the roof mounted one. Another question: If the factory air in the rear is sufficient, why do people spend $5000 on battey powered air conditioners?
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The factory rear air is standard on passenger vans and optional on Cargo and Crew. If you are thinking about a camping vehicle it is worthless for that and NOT designed for extended idling. I have owned Many Econoline's and now a Transit Crew with Front/Read auxiliary a/c and heat. For a road going application it is extremely effective. Used in cargo and crew for folks with animals or extra non factory seating. It uses one compressor , engine driven, for two evaporators, one in the dash like a conventional auto unit and one in the rear with overhead ducting on passenger and NO ducting on Crew/Cargo. There is only one condenser in the grill and relies on ram-air from vehicle movement and an electric motor driven supplemental fan for stop and go operation. Again it is great for what it is designed to do- Go Down the road. A total waste for in place HVAC and actually in the way for a buildout. There are a LOT of comments on this forum about folks who got one because the dealer "says to" and now are trying to figure out how to remove them for a camper build out. I'll try to post a picture of mine. I do not use my van as a camper and I would not have a van without one for my dog. Any more questions on the subject I'll be glad to answer.
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A lot depends on if you are ordering a cargo van or a passenger van. The air distribution system is different for these 2 models. Passenger vans have multiple air outlets from the roof area and heat from the lower floor. Cargo and CrewVan models have it coming from a rear blower housing mounted in the LH rear of the van. The A/C works from this blower housing and the heat comes from under the passenger seat.
The Transit A/C system only works with the engine running so if you have other uses for cooling the van without it running, then you would need the roof A/C that can run without the vehicle engine running. I have had a lot of Transit buyers who have show dogs or are involved in dog rescue activities who need to cool the van without the engine running. Some of the HR & HR Extended van used in the hotter climates need the extra cooling that sometimes makes it hard to do with the factory A/C system. If you look at some of these vehicles used on airport shuttles and hotel transport Transits. they have the added roof A/C system.
The Transit A/C system only works with the engine running so if you have other uses for cooling the van without it running, then you would need the roof A/C that can run without the vehicle engine running. I have had a lot of Transit buyers who have show dogs or are involved in dog rescue activities who need to cool the van without the engine running. Some of the HR & HR Extended van used in the hotter climates need the extra cooling that sometimes makes it hard to do with the factory A/C system. If you look at some of these vehicles used on airport shuttles and hotel transport Transits. they have the added roof A/C system.
If you already will need auxiliary power in the van for other reasons, then the cost of implementing a somewhat larger system capable of powering the air conditioner isn't necessarily too much of an issue.
For instance, the typical power system that I supply / ship to customers is a 2 kW inverter + 4 LiFe batteries + related stuff to operate it, and I have built what is essentially 2x this system for a sprinter that runs the a/c and full cooking simultaneously. The smaller version can run what you are talking about for 3 - 4 hrs engine off.
In my mind, one of the big reasons for going down this path is that you can easily pre cool the van without the engine being on, as well as keep it cool while shopping or working in it.
It of course depends on your climate, but in this area, we get so much sunlight that children can't touch seat belts or seats of pretty much any vehicle for at least 15 minutes after the engine is started / AC running hard.
This was one of the big motivators (along with wanting a portable office) for the development of power systems like this.
It isn't cheap to go down this path though - it can be close to $15K (total including the a/c) if you hire it all out to be installed for something that is rugged enough for regular use.
Another path that is lower cost would be to use a generator in a small enclosed trailer that you pull behind.
____
My main hesitancy about running the van engine in idle mode for long periods of time would be the potential for substantial maintenance. Normally that is just a cost question, but now - it is both a cost and parts availability question.
For instance, the typical power system that I supply / ship to customers is a 2 kW inverter + 4 LiFe batteries + related stuff to operate it, and I have built what is essentially 2x this system for a sprinter that runs the a/c and full cooking simultaneously. The smaller version can run what you are talking about for 3 - 4 hrs engine off.
In my mind, one of the big reasons for going down this path is that you can easily pre cool the van without the engine being on, as well as keep it cool while shopping or working in it.
It of course depends on your climate, but in this area, we get so much sunlight that children can't touch seat belts or seats of pretty much any vehicle for at least 15 minutes after the engine is started / AC running hard.
This was one of the big motivators (along with wanting a portable office) for the development of power systems like this.
It isn't cheap to go down this path though - it can be close to $15K (total including the a/c) if you hire it all out to be installed for something that is rugged enough for regular use.
Another path that is lower cost would be to use a generator in a small enclosed trailer that you pull behind.
____
My main hesitancy about running the van engine in idle mode for long periods of time would be the potential for substantial maintenance. Normally that is just a cost question, but now - it is both a cost and parts availability question.
You describe it as though you wouldn't have any house-battery setup except for air-conditioning. If that's the case, easy call: go with the ~$900 and give it a try; worst case, $900 wasted. If you're going to have house batteries, inverter, etc... then it's a question of how that will change to accommodate A/C - and it can be a BIG difference depending on the answer to that question.Soon I will order a Transit high roof with the long wheel base. I am thinking about the relative merits of the factory ~$900 rear air conditioner option vs the non-factory ~$5000 roof mounted unit+battery+inverter combo option. I scrolled through about two dozen threads and did not find a good evaluation of the rear factory air unit. I see some people saying it works less well when the engine is idling. My question is this: If I park this van in the hot summer heat and run the engine to run the front and rear air conditioner, will it keep my van cool while it is parked? I will have a white van and I will put in good thermal insulation. Please share your experiences with the factory rear air conditioner option. If it is not going to keep my well insulated white high roof long van cool while parked, I think I should go for the roof mounted one. Another question: If the factory air in the rear is sufficient, why do people spend $5000 on battey powered air conditioners?
If you'll have ~10kWh of storage, loads of solar and means to accommodate the draw... then you're on the other question of how you choose to do it. There's a couple folks on here who did their own mini-split install, which is reported to be under $1K and low power draw, comparatively. Or the off-the-shelf 120VAC stuff running through your inverter (high draw but $1K range); or the off-the-shelf 12VDC stuff running off the batteries (lower draw but $2-5K).
So many possible answers...
Get it. The cost is so low it's worth it. I think the sprinter rear a/c option is like $7000 - $8000. You can keep the rear cool while driving, and avoid having to run your inverter and house a/c. Fewer hours put on the house a/c will hep it last longer. Also, when driving, you'll often be charging your house batteries. That will go faster without a large a/c load.Soon I will order a Transit high roof with the long wheel base. I am thinking about the relative merits of the factory ~$900 rear air conditioner option vs the non-factory ~$5000 roof mounted unit+battery+inverter combo option. I scrolled through about two dozen threads and did not find a good evaluation of the rear factory air unit. I see some people saying it works less well when the engine is idling. My question is this: If I park this van in the hot summer heat and run the engine to run the front and rear air conditioner, will it keep my van cool while it is parked? I will have a white van and I will put in good thermal insulation. Please share your experiences with the factory rear air conditioner option. If it is not going to keep my well insulated white high roof long van cool while parked, I think I should go for the roof mounted one. Another question: If the factory air in the rear is sufficient, why do people spend $5000 on battey powered air conditioners?
The rear a/c option will keep the van cool when parked under most conditions, at least when the vehicle is new and the condenser is clean and in good shape. In extreme temps, and as the van gets older, it may not work as well when parked. I routinely leave the van idling for 10-20 minutes in 90-100F temps while parked and it keeps it cool, albeit not as well as when driving.
But for long duration cooling while parked, you need a house a/c. Idling for 5 hours everyday to run the rear a/c isn't a good plan. Some people do it, but if you do it often enough, you'll pay the price in engine maintenance.
Only downside of a house a/c is the cost to have one that runs for any reasonable amount of time. You need a large battery bank, and a lot of charging capability (alternator, solar, inverter/charger, grid access, etc).
Off-grid heating is easy. Cooling not so much.
Cheers.
My Ford E-350 OEM A/C works great at cooling van, but as others have stated, requires van engine to idle which isn’t possible or practical much of the time. A Transit engine-driven air conditioner would have same limitations (except for lower fuel consumption during idling).If the factory air in the rear is sufficient, why do people spend $5000 on battey powered air conditioners?
The main reason for us having an additional A/C is that many places we go prohibit idling the van engine for long periods. I have idled for an hour or two a couple of times to cool van successfully, but we can’t idle engine 24-hours a day in most campgrounds, etc.
Safety concerns regarding exhaust entering van is another reason. One can argue it is no worse than powering A/C with a generator, though I feel safer with small inverter generator away from van than idling van engine. I have never slept overnight with van engine running no matter how hot I got. Obviously, either approach requires a high quality monitor for safety.
Fuel cost would also add up if van engine was idling 24 hours a day even if occasionally, assuming one was parked in middle of nowhere. Also assumes no concern over exhaust or damaging van engine.
I don’t consider idling van engine a viable long-term plan to enjoy air conditioning on a regular basis. Regarding battery versus generator to power A/C, that’s a tougher decision in my opinion because it involves a lot of variables that affect us all differently. If I was going to only camp in isolated areas, I would add roof A/C and power with generator before I’d idle van engine much of the time.
Current production Transits have a feature that only allows a 30 minute Idle time and automatically shuts down the engine and turns off the ignition system. IT IS NOT RELATED TO THE START STOP FEATURE. The auto shut down feature cannot be overridden and is reset every key on cycle. A transit has air venting system in the lower walls with flap valves to relieve air pressure when the doors are closed. EXTENDED engine idling is dangerous to the occupants from carbon monoxide intrusion. Do a search on Ford Interceptors from 2018-2019. Ford blamed the problem on up fitters But many cases were UC vehicles with no up fit. Thus the Idle auto shut down systems. Do what you want with your A/C but a remote generator and a roof air is way safer than Idling. For Many years ford had warnings for extended idling causing extensive engine damage in their 460 equipped Econoline, the suggestion was 30 min max.
Had it in our passenger van build and with the rear duct vents it definitely did help while driving, but when idling it didn't seem to be as effective. I thought the heat worked way better than the A/C when I used them.
Why tow a generator. We put an onan 4000 watt generator under the van.If you already will need auxiliary power in the van for other reasons, then the cost of implementing a somewhat larger system capable of powering the air conditioner isn't necessarily too much of an issue.
For instance, the typical power system that I supply / ship to customers is a 2 kW inverter + 4 LiFe batteries + related stuff to operate it, and I have built what is essentially 2x this system for a sprinter that runs the a/c and full cooking simultaneously. The smaller version can run what you are talking about for 3 - 4 hrs engine off.
In my mind, one of the big reasons for going down this path is that you can easily pre cool the van without the engine being on, as well as keep it cool while shopping or working in it.
It of course depends on your climate, but in this area, we get so much sunlight that children can't touch seat belts or seats of pretty much any vehicle for at least 15 minutes after the engine is started / AC running hard.
This was one of the big motivators (along with wanting a portable office) for the development of power systems like this.
It isn't cheap to go down this path though - it can be close to $15K (total including the a/c) if you hire it all out to be installed for something that is rugged enough for regular use.
Another path that is lower cost would be to use a generator in a small enclosed trailer that you pull behind.
____
My main hesitancy about running the van engine in idle mode for long periods of time would be the potential for substantial maintenance. Normally that is just a cost question, but now - it is both a cost and parts availability question.
4,000-Watt generator seems large to me for a van, but a great option to evaluate versus extended idling. Most factory gasoline vans that have Onan go with smaller and lighter 2800-Watt model which should be powerful enough for most owners. The newest 2800i (inverter model) is much more fuel efficient at partial load, like would be required to power air conditioners in 1,000~1,500 Watt range.Why tow a generator. We put an onan 4000 watt generator under the van.
Presently using and having to haul around portable inverter generator and fuel containers makes me miss the built-in Onan in previous RV. It’s so much more convenient. Having said that, cost to add a new 2800i Onan isn’t much cheaper than adding extra battery and inverter capacity (assuming van would have some lithium battery and inverter anyway in addition to generator).
I am in the markers for a low profile roof mount 12v ac unit but I’m but I’m not sure which one is the best? Do any of them also offer heat?
Mostly for the noise inside the van, but also as a way to deal retain ground clearance.Why tow a generator. We put an onan 4000 watt generator under the van.
I would enjoy seeing some photos of your installation.
That is why I suggest to people to use at least a 3000 size generator. The fuel tank on the smaller ones just isn't large enough for air conditioner or heavier uses.4,000-Watt generator seems large to me for a van, but a great option to evaluate versus extended idling. Most factory gasoline vans that have Onan go with smaller and lighter 2800-Watt model which should be powerful enough for most owners. The newest 2800i (inverter model) is much more fuel efficient at partial load, like would be required to power air conditioners in 1,000~1,500 Watt range.
Presently using and having to haul around portable inverter generator and fuel containers makes me miss the built-in Onan in previous RV. It’s so much more convenient. Having said that, cost to add a new 2800i Onan isn’t much cheaper than adding extra battery and inverter capacity (assuming van would have some lithium battery and inverter anyway in addition to generator).
A 3000 is also quieter than a 2000 for any load greater than 1000 watts.
I chose my 2200/1800 Watt portable inverter generator in part because it had a larger 1.3 gallon fuel tank, which allows it to run around 10 hours overnight. Granted, I only power 5,000 BTU/hr A/C. The 10+ hours is good enough to prevent having to refuel in middle of night, though it is not as “convenient” as a built-in generator that takes fuel from vehicle’s tank. Similar portable generators like Honda only had 0.95 gallon fuel tanks, and I wasn’t sure they would run through the night (though possible if more fuel efficient).That is why I suggest to people to use at least a 3000 size generator. The fuel tank on the smaller ones just isn't large enough for air conditioner or heavier uses.
A 3000 is also quieter than a 2000 for any load greater than 1000 watts.
I know extended fuel tanks are available, but that’s even more stuff to haul and deal with. If my van was newer, I would consider adding a 2,800i Onan.
It is big. It takes a huge chunk of real estate from the back, especially problematic since it is at the rear doors where you need the space. I built it into a storage cabinet against the rear doors, and the ducting is a challenge. OK, for ong days of summer driving while wanting to keep the van from being a furnace when we pull in, but not good for days in campsite.
It works, although it takes a while to get cold. I'm not sure I would trust that it would keep the rear cold in really hot weather - less hot than baked, but not cold.
And I, for one, wouldn't want to idle the engine just to run the AC overnight, except in the worst-case emergency...
If I re-did my build, I would skip the factory unit, and do a mini-split heat-pump for both hot and cold. I'd try to put the outside unit on the roof, and the inside unit mid passenger side under the kitchen. Not sure there are really good choices for mini-split, but I'd surely try harder to find something, knowing what I know now.
I did install a propane heater under the floor; it failed before I ever got to use it. On my list to fix before this winter, but not sure I won't just junk it in favor of the electric fan heater I used last winter. But WISH I had a heat pump instead.
It works, although it takes a while to get cold. I'm not sure I would trust that it would keep the rear cold in really hot weather - less hot than baked, but not cold.
And I, for one, wouldn't want to idle the engine just to run the AC overnight, except in the worst-case emergency...
If I re-did my build, I would skip the factory unit, and do a mini-split heat-pump for both hot and cold. I'd try to put the outside unit on the roof, and the inside unit mid passenger side under the kitchen. Not sure there are really good choices for mini-split, but I'd surely try harder to find something, knowing what I know now.
I did install a propane heater under the floor; it failed before I ever got to use it. On my list to fix before this winter, but not sure I won't just junk it in favor of the electric fan heater I used last winter. But WISH I had a heat pump instead.
It’s actually pretty quiet. As far as clearance someone mentioned. The rear differential ans hitch are lower. So they would bottom out before the generator.Mostly for the noise inside the van, but also as a way to deal retain ground clearance.
I would enjoy seeing some photos of your installation.
We put a 4000watt. Instead of the 2800i so that we could run the ac in the van and the ac off our tow Rv both off the same generator. (With soft starts on both). Works great.That is why I suggest to people to use at least a 3000 size generator. The fuel tank on the smaller ones just isn't large enough for air conditioner or heavier uses.
A 3000 is also quieter than a 2000 for any load greater than 1000 watts.
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