[onetwo]

display usually automatically toggles to "distance to empty"

not this time.... left me high and dry.

Perusing the owners manual, says "running out of fuel may damage engine not covered under warranty"

My vehicle was running at 3mph as I was creeping in the parking lot when it stalled, I don't see how engine damage could have occurred.

Filled er up with premium, and off we go....

 

[Byron the Painter]

I don't see how engine damage could have occurred.

Me neither...only perhaps is it clogs up the injectors with something sucked through the fuel filter.

Whenever I get really close to E, I only give myself 30 miles...never ran out of gas that way. Although back in the 80s when I handled money like a moron, rolling in on fumes was de rigueur.

 

[asdrew]

If you have engine trouble, just go into the dealer and say, "I let it run out of gas, and it hasn't run right since!" d'oh!

 

[alarmist]

Don't put it past him.

 

[joefromga]

Being a high performance turbo engine the problem of running out of fuel can be a lean condition as well as the sensors having havoc wreaked upon them as the bubbles come through the fuel lines and injectors.

I can imagine a heavy throttle and especially in a hilly area it may take a couple of minutes before you run out from when you start to chugging.

So now you're forcing lean conditions, chugging, sensors getting no burn then burn then no air then air, vacuum turn boost, then hot spots and all sorts of stuff. Probably not good for an electronically controlled engine.

 

[tcsweep]

What about an ethanol blend. In the cornbelt it`s at nearly every gas station. I`ve heard of upper tier gas, but the penny pincher in me always made me avoid those stations if I could. Now that I`ve spent so much money for a new van, I may decide to think differently about what I pay for a gallon of gas.

 

[RandomJoe]

Ford says nothing more that 15% ethanol in the EB, the 3.7L NA is flex-fuel so can run E85.

My guess is it's mostly down to the fuel delivery system that keeps the EB from being E85 capable. I've been reading / watching way too much about turbocharged engines lately - this will be my first one - and ethanol is actually *useful* in them, as it burns slower / raises the octane rating of the fuel. (Though note that 87 octane E10 simply means they started with an even lower-grade gasoline then mixed ethanol to get it up to 87.)

However ethanol has less energy, so if you ran pure ethanol you'd need to push about 30% more fuel than with regular gas. Reading the F150 forums it seems one limiter with the stock EB setup is fuel delivery, the pumps get pretty close to their limit with regular gas, the engine could starve for fuel if running high ethanol levels.

You also need to change tuning fairly drastically to take advantage of higher ethanol levels, the stock ECU apparently isn't set up to make as much adjustment as is required. Lots of people on the F150 forums run custom tunes that let them run more aggressively with 91/93 octane, even E85, but they CAN NOT run lower-grade fuel with that tune in or risk blowing up their engines due to detonation since the ECU won't back off timing enough. (As some of them call it, the "hole in block mod".)

The way "flex fuel" engines work is there is a device installed in the fuel line that can real-time measure the amount of ethanol in the fuel and adjust timing parameters as required. Some videos I've watched (Mighty Car Mods) use an Australian after-market ECU that can gradually adjust timing between the two extremes of pump gas and E85 so the engine runs as well as possible no matter what blend of the two is in the tank.

In the manual Ford says flex-fuel engines must use no more than 15% ethanol, or E85. Perhaps they don't do gradual readjustment and simply switch between two timing maps? Wonder what happens if you blend the two and wind up with - say - 50% ethanol...

 

[joefromga]

k.

In the manual Ford says flex-fuel engines must use no more than 15% ethanol, or E85. Perhaps they don't do gradual readjustment and simply switch between two timing maps? Wonder what happens if you blend the two and wind up with - say - 50% ethanol...

E85 is actually 51-83% ethanol so I'm sure it won't matter.
The manual is probably written in a way that says use "normal" gas which is e15 or the "other gas" which is E85. Giving you an option, not either/or.

 

[foxharp]

E85 is actually 51-83% ethanol so I'm sure it won't matter.
The manual is probably written in a way that says use "normal" gas which is e15 or the "other gas" which is E85. Giving you an option, not either/or.

wow! i'm really glad i read this. the numerology of the name had me convinced that E85 _was_ 15% ethanol. had no idea it could be up to almost 50%.

paul

 

[joefromga]

It's not almost up to 50%. It's from 51-83% ethanol and the remainder is gasoline. E85 is MOSTLY ethanol.

The regular gas you buy at the pump is usually E10 or E15. The only gas without ethanol is marine gas and off road gas.

 

[RandomJoe]

...or in a few states (like mine) where people raised such a stink that it's still easy to get "real gas" as it's marketed here. It's a funny world now - just down the street the Conoco sells only E10/15 and the grocery store gas station across from it sells "100% real" gas!

Actually, that may just be certain CITIES in the state, now I think about it. I usually only see E10/15 when I'm outside the larger cities.

 

[brittles]

How much of a premium do you guys pay for non-ethanol?

One station in town that offers 92 octane wants $4.50 per gallon.

 

[Budsky]

I use a fair amount of the non-ethanol- it isn't that hard to find in SC and NC, but prices vary a lot more. Typically it is about 20% more, but can be much more than that.
I have yet to see E15 anywhere- and when I do I am not buying it!

BTW the non-ethanol gas I buy in SC and NC is not marine or off road gas. The main place I buy it - comes right out of a regular dispenser with multiple hoses.

 

[brittles]

Yeah, I don't see any E15 around here. I thought 10% was the limit. Must be a state by state thing.

 

[RandomJoe]

I think the E10 vs "real" 87 octane difference here is usually around 20 cents/gal. Gas Buddy shows the two places down the street are 22 cents apart at the moment. Back when prices were ridiculously high I did see some occasions where the difference neared 40 cents.

Curiously the grocery store ("real gas") 91 octane is 8 cents cheaper than the Conoco, is all premium non-ethanol? The Conoco pumps are all marked E10.

I've seen some E15 labels on newer stations here but the label only says "may contain UP TO X%" so doesn't necessarily mean that's what they're getting.

 

[Radioman]

Another problem that might surface is the fuel pump in the tank is cooled by the gasoline in the tank. Running the fuel down takes away the cooling effect of the gasoline. When running low fuel on hilly roads, this can lead to no cooling of the fuel pump at times. It is suggested that you never run lower than 1/8th tank for this reason and also to give you alittle bit of travel time to find a gas station. Do you believe the computers anyway?

 

[greg-92083]

Caveat I am 75 retired and rarely in any kind of hurry. Traveling I stop about once an hour, get out and walk around and take in the view. Life experiences taught me it is a good idea to have more than less fuel. I have always tried to refill my fuel tank when it gets down to around 1/2 a tank.

Greg Hayden
Vista, CA USA

 

[foxharp]

It's not almost up to 50%. It's from 51-83% ethanol and the remainder is gasoline. E85 is MOSTLY ethanol.

oh!! thanks. i certainly had that all wrong, then.

The regular gas you buy at the pump is usually E10 or E15. The only gas without ethanol is marine gas and off road gas.

yeah. here in new england all gas (practically speaking -- i've never seen a 100% gas label on a pump) is 10%. i haven't seen 15% -- i know some organizations like the AMA (American Motorcyclists Association) are fighting general approval of 15% because it can damage older vehicles. the fuel industry doesn't seem to care about actual vehicles -- just percentages of vehicles made after such-and-such a date. all the older vehicles are just the owner's problem -- too bad.

maybe with the drop in gas prices some of the pressure from the farm lobby will ease up.

 

[mlts22]

E-15 is being pushed hard on us. It may sound productive, but really it isn't:

1: It means less MPG per gallon. On a truck that runs E-85, you might see 5-10 more horsepower, but you will greatly notice the fuel economy dent... and the MPG loss is definitely not worth the cheaper fuel.
2: It means more oil changes.
3: Alcohol brings water with it, and this stuff can corrode things.
4: It makes gas's lifetime a lot shorter. Before E-10, I dump in some Sta-Bil, gas could sit around for almost two years. Now, 6 months old gas, if I dump that in my generator, guess who will be doing a carb rebuild.
5: It destroys small engines.

Overall, with the cost of engines having to be replaced, ethanol has been an overall bad thing. If pumps could have E-0, E-10, and E-85, fine. However, there are a lot of vehicles whose warranties will be killed by E-15.

 

[EddieZ]

E-15 is being pushed hard on us. It may sound productive, but really it isn't...

I thought the political tides were starting to turn against Ethanol. And, at least one leading presidential candidate spoke against it, in Iowa corn country.