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rbisch

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone looking into ordering the 3.7 Ti-VCT V6 with the propane prep package.

Here in Canada a complete conversion costs about $4500 to $5500. This is for a dual conversion gas/propane. Vehicle is reported to run equally well on either fuel. Propane costs about 40% less then gas. It would not take long at this rate to pay for the conversion.

If anyone is planning a conversion I would be interested in any information regarding conversion companies, systems, costs and procedures.
 
M

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#2 ·
Gas has an octane of around 87 and needs a compression ratio in the 9s to extract the energy efficiently. CNG has an octane of 130 and needs a compression ratio in the 12s to extract the energy efficiently. Propane has an octane of 110 and needs a higher compression ratio higher than a standard gas engine to run efficiently you will see a loss of MPGs and horsepower. With CNG conversions you see a loss of horsepower (10-15%) and loss of MPGs (~12% city / 7% highway).
 
V

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#3 ·
The volume of the CNG will limit the range big time. Crown Vic's with CNG had the range of like 8 gallons of gas. If you where driving around in the city with refueling capability (shortt deliverlies) then OK, but I know this is what killed it at Ford in the past. Explosions when refueling got GM out of it. Its VERY hard to replace gasoline, If you are a diesel person, Then thats better, buts thats about it today and the next couple of years.

Regards,
VanMan
 
S

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#5 ·
I haven't researched it much, but I was already going to order the $300 prep package.

So you're saying around $5000 for a dual setup, where you keep your factory gas(oline) tank and add tanks for propane/cng?

With how much I drive, that would be a no brainer. I know with CNG finding stations is a pain in the ass (maybe it will improve?) With propane, could any old propane place fill it? Costco?
 
rbisch

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
M

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#7 ·
I am sort of surprised by the $5K conversion cost. I was quoted over $7K years ago. I only drive around 15K miles a year and half of that is for road trips. I figured the best I could do was 75% of the miles on propane. It would take 9 years at best to payback. Now if I ran a delivery service with 30K miles/year it would take about 2-3 years. CNG certified conversions are around $10K. You need to drive a lot to make it payback. I guess it says do the math.
 
C

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#10 ·
mogulman said:
Gas has an octane of around 87 and needs a compression ratio in the 9s to extract the energy efficiently. CNG has an octane of 130 and needs a compression ratio in the 12s to extract the energy efficiently. Propane has an octane of 110 and needs a higher compression ratio higher than a standard gas engine to run efficiently you will see a loss of MPGs and horsepower. With CNG conversions you see a loss of horsepower (10-15%) and loss of MPGs (~12% city / 7% highway).
Click to expand...
My 2 cents on this great subject....

I think most internal combustion engines become more thermally efficient as the compression ratio is made higher. However, it's the fuel's octane rating that limits how high the CR can be made otherwise the engine knocks due to detonation or pre-ignition of the fuel. I like to look at from the standpoint that higher octane fuels allow spark-ignition (SI) engines to have higher compression ratios. And higher CR makes engines more thermally efficient. Obviously engineers also have to worry about pollution in addition to power/fuel efficiency.

The Ford 3.7L V6 has a compression ratio of around 10.5, which seems about average by modern standards. With gasoline direct injection some modern engines have considerably higher CRs.

Regarding lower power, I'm under the impression that comes about in part due to the gaseous fuel reducing how much air the engine can breath during intake stroke. And if so, that may make it less powerful without being less efficient.
 
M

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#11 ·
I am no expert on this but as it was explained to me engines with higher compression ratios extract more energy from a given quantity of fuel. You need to use the max CR without pre-ignition. The Honda Civic CNG, CR of 12.7, has almost identical power/mpgs as the gas version.
 
M

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#12 ·
bbird said:
I drive over 60,000 miles a year:eek:, and I have a propane station one mile from my house which is open 7 days a week:)
Click to expand...
If you drive that much it may be worthwhile to checkout CNG and home fueling. CNG is probably less than a $1.00/GGE. Some people that drive a lot less than that swear by it. There are a few issues:


1. Certified CNG conversions are usually over $10,000

2. A suitable CNG home fueling compressor is around $7,000 plus installation cost. They also require regular maintenance.

3. CNG tanks take up some room. Probably want Type3 or Type4 tanks that are lighter but cost more.


This works if most of your miles are local. If you want more info this is a good forum:

Natural Gas Vehicle Owner Community
 
V

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#14 ·
We ordered ours with the package to make it easier to convert to using propane or cng. I'm not sure we will actually do it unless gas prices get really high again but I like having the option there. I have been looking into it more from the cng side since we happen to have a public fueling station very nearby. I've seen all sorts of prices for it. My big concern is the safety of driving around with cng tanks in the cargo area. I'm also not sure how much space the tanks would use and if it would make the cargo space too small for our needs.
 
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B

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#16 ·
Resurrection anyone?

Gasoline is now 1.14 a litre again, propane 0.47

I drive 100k to 200k a year...i was on CNG for about $1 a gallon in NY at the public National Fuel Gas station, had a route between Cleveland and Hamilton ON. I had a 600km (400 mile) range with the addition of 2 tanks. Had no problem finding fuel from MI, OH, NY, and thru Ontario all the way to Ottawa (although farther I had to continue on to Quebec or turn around back to Peterborough)

Now CNG is not what I'm talking about, here it's hard to find and about 85c a litre, in US its usually more expensive than gasoline (save that one station in Buffalo and some in Utah)...soo....

Does anyone have a line on kits for the Transit, or already converted vehicles? The 4500-5500 is a pure cash grab. I never paid more than $2000 for a dedicated CNG dodge, due to the fact that people thought they had no range and no power...had no problem carrying 2000 lbs with mine, cost $45 for 800 km....now I'm itching for a propane, my route is gone and i'm heavy on the Canadian deliveries
 
B

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#18 ·
Alliance Autogas has a Ford Transit EPA approved conversion kit, utilizing a 21 gallon donut tank in place of the spare tire. No cutting of wires or drilling of intake, plug and play. Exactly what I'm looking for!

Unfortunately they have such a backlog of orders, there's no interest in selling a kit to individuals, it's all to conversion facilities.

Maybe I can pick up a used model someday. That's the best method IMO, let somebody else pay the conversion cost and depreciation

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk
 
M

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#19 ·
well i hope they build the car ones better then they do on the forklift ones, it seems like i am replacing pressure regulators (somewhat cheap, about 150 dollars each) every 6 months on Nissan forklifts.
 
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elmo40
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