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Plus nut spinning?

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If you have this problem. You can try this thread tap. $10 Home Depot. Worked for me.
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The better way to do this, is use the tap Before it starts spinning. And moderately hard to install bolt - remove, tap, and then put the bolt back in.

pretty critical
 

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The best procedure is to set the plus nut and then run a tap through it to clean up the tread. But I got away with firmly setting the plus nut and then running a stainless steel bolt through to clean up the thread. I only had a couple plus nuts spin on me and I just had to reset them better. The main point is to always clean up the thread right after you set a plus nut. Otherwise you could be in for a nasty surprise later, when you don't have easy access to the plus nut.
 

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2019 HR Cargo Oxford White 148 wb 3.7L
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Plus Nuts provide the ultimate pull out strength in thin metals and plastic. They feature the widest grip range of any blind threaded inserts. The solution is to add a spacer (washer) when using Plus nuts in thin sheet metal. Search Plus nut.
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My guess is the install tool threaded mandrel is not engaging the Plus nut sufficiently during installation, thus distorting the first few threads in the Plus nut, making further thread engagement difficult. the following pictures show the install tool mandrel, when the Plus nut is slid on the mandrel there is a 1/4 inch gap, approximately 5 revolution until Plus nut bottoms out on shoulder of install tool, Check your install tool, should not have to chase threads with a tap if installation is going well. Yes a tap will clean up the threads,
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Plus Nuts provide the ultimate pull out strength in thin metals and plastic. They feature the widest grip range of any blind threaded inserts. The solution is to add a spacer (washer) when using Plus nuts in thin sheet metal. Search Plus nut.
This is another one of those vanlife trends that got spread through influencers that nobody bothered to understand before applying.

Rivnuts are stronger than plus nuts in almost every loading condition except pure axial load. Once set, the a rivnut has a much shorter load path from the threaded portion to the backside of the nut, whereas a plusnut transfers the load through the long tings of each bulbed leg. Unless you accidentally overdrilled a hole by a significant margin, the rivnut will spin less and hold more load in almost every direction.

Even the inventor (who invented both plusnuts and rivnuts) recommend plusnuts only for plastics or pure axial loading. There's a reason that rivnuts are used almost everywhere in industry while you rarely see a plusnut.

 

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From page 42
The RIVNUT® PN (Plus-Nut®) blind rivet nut has been specially designed for integrating into plastic parts, hollow
sections or thin-walled sheet steel requiring high pull-out forces. The slotted shank splays out into four “petals”
on the blind side of the base material, thus offering a large bearing surface and ensuring maximum pull-out force.
Additional design benefits of RIVNUT® PN are:
■ The RIVNUT® PN displays the largest clamping area of the range of blind rivet nuts for variable thicknesses of
material
■ Large clamping area to reinforce the workpiece
■ Minimal radial stresses in the setting process to avoid the risk of breakage on soft or fragile materials
■ Available in steel, aluminium and stainless steel
■ Available in thread sizes M 4 to M 10 (non-metric/imperial measurements on request)


so pull-out resistance, Plus-nut 2.5 more vs RIVNUT.
in shear the screw or bolt will be the limiting factor
what other loads are you referring to?
 

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so pull-out resistance, Plus-nut 2.5 more vs RIVNUT.
in shear the screw or bolt will be the limiting factor
what other loads are you referring to?
Yes. The Transit sheet metal is not "thin", it's probably right in the middle of available sheet metal gauges (probably closer to bar-stock than the thinnest sheet metals, even).

You're defining failure as pulling out or bolt failure, the more likely failure mode (assuming you installed both correctly) is that the rivnut/plusnut deforms and the bolt does not provide the same clamp load, which will eventually cause the bolt to loosen. And at that point, once the bolt loosens some, you could also lose the bolt in a shear failure, but that will be after the rivnut/plusnut already failed.

The rivnut is stronger and resists deformation better than the plusnut in all directions except pure pull-out force, thus their recommendation is to use plusnuts only when extra pull out strength is paramount, but unless you're literally using string and hanging a hammock directly below or something, you're never loading it strictly axially, especially in a moving van.


Oh, and given that rivnuts are 10x cheaper, even if you were trying to save money, 2.5x rivnuts to match the pull out strength of the 1 plusnut will still be cheaper. 😉
 

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Your words:
Yes. The Transit sheet metal is not "thin", it's probably right in the middle of available sheet metal gauges (probably closer to bar-stock than the thinnest sheet metals, even).

I measured the sheet metal with a micrometer, the wall area in the rear area measures 0.028 inch or 0.71 mm with paint. M6 or 1/4-20 Plus-nut Grip range is 0.5-5.0mm, thats 0.21mm 0.008" inch (2 sheets of paper) above minimum. hardly in the middle of the grip range or bar stock. that why many people recommend adding a thin washer 1.0mm thick (thicker is ok) makes a big difference regarding the Plus-nuts spinning, many places are thin single sheet thick yes there are areas that are thicker some areas are doubled thick etc.

Your words:
"Oh, and given that rivnuts are 10x cheaper"
"There's a reason that rivnuts are used almost everywhere in industry while you rarely see a plusnut."
OOOOh that's a Bingo, the main reason is Cost! Plus-nuts are more expensive.
 

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Even the inventor (who invented both plusnuts and rivnuts) recommend plusnuts only for plastics
From the document you posted:
"The RIVNUT® PN (Plus-Nut®) blind rivet nut has been specially designed for integrating into plastic parts, hollow sections or thin-walled sheet steel requiring high pull-out forces." IIRC the thickness of the steel in the Transit falls in middle of the range of the plus nut for the smaller thicknesses.

This is another one of those vanlife trends that got spread through influencers that nobody bothered to understand before applying.
I agree with your general sentiment here, and there are certainly many examples that can be pointed out.
Rivnuts are stronger than plus nuts in almost every loading condition except pure axial load ...
The rivnut is stronger and resists deformation better than the plusnut in all directions except pure pull-out force
The document you posted does show some comparison data for pure axial loading (fancy word for pull out force) I understand your theoretical explanation of the forces/strength for but have never seen any comparative test data from Bollhoff. Is there any test info/claims from them or other manufacturers that you know of? I would honestly be very interested in such info. Certainly the strength perpendicular to pull out is very important in a van.

So I guess what I am saying is it would be nice to have some more data on the Rivnuts for folks to use inform their decisions rather than just another "influence" based on the assessment/understanding of the design theory you have presented. Unfortunately, I doubt Bollhoff would provide any data to an individual, even if they did have such info. Thus, here we are.
 

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I have installed Rivnuts through out my Van for my 1/4 inch paneling , the paneling
is getting mounted directly to the rivnuts no furring .
I played around with scrap piece of sheet metal similar to the thickness of van
sheet metal to get the feel for it using the Rivnut tool , got all my bottom panels
installed and no spinners and using my cordless driver to get the screws in most
of way and the final tightening by hand ,
I think its pretty clear by looking at a Rivnut that is has a continuous 360 degree
clamping area ( circle ) that is has a better grip hold for most applications but
sheet metal in particular, now I can see maybe a plus nut perhaps working better
on softer material like plastics or wood.
And also take your time installing these and not be in a big hurry , I have seen
some YouTube videos and people always seem to be in a big hurry??
no wonder they get spinners regardless what they use??
 

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I’ve installed at least 300 plus nuts in my van and not one of them spin. It’s not that hard. Use the mcmaster tool and a torque wrench. Clean up any threads that need it with a tap. Use a washer below the head of the plusnut when installing. If you do those things, you have pretty much 0 chance of a spinner, which is the only real downside compared to rivnuts. Plus nuts are a lot more lenient on hole size than rivnuts, which is useful when using existing holes in the van.

rivnuts are fine, but using mostly M6/ 1/4 hardware, you want all the pull out you can get in the (very thin) .7mm transit sheet metal

I feel quite comfortable mounting propane tanks and under chassis components with 5/16” 400 series stainless plusnuts from Bolhoff. Would not be mounting anything under the chassis with rivnuts.
 

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I’ve installed at least 300 plus nuts in my van and not one of them spin. It’s not that hard. Use the mcmaster tool and a torque wrench. Clean up any threads that need it with a tap. Use a washer below the head of the plusnut when installing. If you do those things, you have pretty much 0 chance of a spinner, which is the only real downside compared to rivnuts. Plus nuts are a lot more lenient on hole size than rivnuts, which is useful when using existing holes in the van.

rivnuts are fine, but using mostly M6/ 1/4 hardware, you want all the pull out you can get in the (very thin) .7mm transit sheet metal
...
I have also installed a hundred or so plusnuts (M5, M6, M8) without any spinners. Mostly transit sheet metal to hold heavy things against walls.

My technique for use with stainless steel bolts is as follows:
1. Lube tool threads before screwing plusnut onto tool.
2. Inset plusnut into hole & apply max tool pull to set
3. Unscrew tool from plusnut.
4. Apply lube to tap & clean out threads.
5. Apply lube to bolt threads before tightening.
6. LIMIT your tightening torque when installing bolt. For example, only 8-10nm for M6s.

Practice, improve, & test your techniques BEFORE making critical installs.

Good luck,

Catfish ...
 

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This discussion is similar to a Democrat and a Republican discussing politics. No matter how much it is talked about both think they are right.

I tried Rivnuts first and quickly changed to Plusnuts. Had no difficulties installing the Plusnuts in two conversions. I did it without the recommended star washer because I was not smart enough to see the flange on the back side of the head. Did them by feel without a torque wrench. Had to clean up the threads on a couple probably caused by not keeping the install tool perpendicular enough to the hole. No issues with spinning.

Did see that the bolt for the McMaster-Carr tool was too short for use with a Plusnut. Bought a longer bolt so more threads were engaged.

The drawing in post #16 is misleading. The Plusnut sketch is OK but the Rivnut sketch should not be a fat circle. Suspect the contact area of the 4 Plusnut feet is much larger than the contact area of Rivnut. Rivnut only has a thin line where nut contacts the sheet metal. Plusnut is much more forgiving about hole diameter because the 4 feet extend so far past the hole diameter.

We should let this discussion die and just vote whatever floats your boat.
 
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