[Landcruiser]

So the question on everybody’s mind, especially those with 2023 unscheduled clean orders, is will my Transit be built, or am I gonna be sitting on this forum in a year in the same boat - no van. Somehow Mercedes seems to have a better supply chain. In December the new AWD Sprinter will hit the ground with a turbo charged 4 cylinder diesel, as well as a gas motor. This is not the old “4WD Sprinter” which we all know was AWD with braking applied to the wheel without traction, but a true AWD that sends 50% of power to the front axle and 50% to the rear. It will be interesting to see if it impacts Tansit’s sales ( which are low because there are very few Transits to sell)

 

[Janus9]

So the question on everybody’s mind, especially those with 2023 unscheduled clean orders, is will my Transit be built, or am I gonna be sitting on this forum in a year in the same boat - no van. Somehow Mercedes seems to have a better supply chain. In December the new AWD Sprinter will hit the ground with a turbo charged 4 cylinder diesel, as well as a gas motor. This is not the old “4WD Sprinter” which we all know was AWD with braking applied to the wheel without traction, but a true AWD that sends 50% of power to the front axle and 50% to the rear. It will be interesting to see if it impacts Tansit’s sales ( which are low because there are very few Transits to sell)

Ford sells many more Transits in the USA than Mercedes sells sprinters. Probably at a 2 or even 3+ to 1 ratio depending on the year.

USA sales

​

	Mercedes-Benz Sprinter
2021	43.574
2020	26.942
2019	31.851
2018	29.788

Ford Transit

2018	137,794
2019	153,867
2020	131,557
2021	99,745

For 2022 Transit is at about 70k and Sprinter at about 27k

Overall, the Transit is a much more popular van.

Ford Transit Sales Figures

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

www.goodcarbadcar.net

Mercedes-Benz Sprinter US car sales figures

Car sales statistics for the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter and all other auto models in the US from early 2000's to 2017 by year and 2014 to 2018 by month.

carsalesbase.com

 

[dustymiller]

Many of us would be interested in the subset of vans that are both AWD and available to retail buyers. The stats in Post #2 include a lot of Amazon and other fleet RWDs.

So I went into Cargurus to check the offerings. Today's nationwide listings suggest that AWD Sprinters are considerably easier to find than Transits. (Note: I did not scroll through all the individual listings to confirm they are unique. I know sometimes there are duplicate listings).

Transit AWD:
Cargo 246
Crew 6
Passenger 40

Sprinter AWD:
Crew 642
Cargo 290

 

[Boxster1971]

So the question on everybody’s mind, especially those with 2023 unscheduled clean orders, is will my Transit be built, or am I gonna be sitting on this forum in a year in the same boat - no van. Somehow Mercedes seems to have a better supply chain. In December the new AWD Sprinter will hit the ground with a turbo charged 4 cylinder diesel, as well as a gas motor. This is not the old “4WD Sprinter” which we all know was AWD with braking applied to the wheel without traction, but a true AWD that sends 50% of power to the front axle and 50% to the rear. It will be interesting to see if it impacts Tansit’s sales ( which are low because there are very few Transits to sell)

As Janus9 mentioned The Transit now outsells Sprinter by 2-3X is USA market. I doubt that the Sprinter will ever be as popular as the Transit in USA market. Globally they compete head-to-head.

Despite supply chain issues Ford is now delivering 2023 Transits. Mercedes is still just delivering a few remaining 2022 Sprinters as they are slow at getting their EPA emission certifications for 2023. Word is they may be able to start delivering 2023 Sprinters in November - but that remains to be seen.

Not sure where you got info on new 2023 Sprinters. Only the high output 4-cylinder diesel is offered in AWD versions. The gas engine Sprinter is only available in lighter RWD 1500 & 2500 models. It is also an orphan now that Mercedes announced that the gas engine will be dropped after MY2023.

The pre-2023 4WD Sprinter was a 4X4 with selectable engagement of the front drive axle and optional two-speed transfer case. The new to USA Sprinter AWD uses a system derived from Mercedes long history of 4MATIC systems. It is biased towards rear wheel drive with a torque-on-demand transfer case that will send up to 50% of power to front axle when the vehicles computers think it is necessary. It still uses the brakes to control traction much like the AWD in Transits.

With market decisions made by Ford and Mercedes over past few years it has boiled down to two choices for AWD vans.

• If you want a gasoline engine your only choice is a Ford Transit
• If you want a diesel engine your only choice is a Mercedes Sprinter [The Freightliner Sprinter has been discontinued]

 

[kdenning]

What's it actually going to cost?

Apples to apples, gas AWD Transit vs gas AWD Sprinter?

I bought a 4x4 170 Sprinter in 2021 for $60,000. No mark up. No bullshit. Dealers are asking $80,000 for the same van today but that's irrelevant. That's a true 4x4 and a 6 cylinder diesel.

My 2022/2023 AWD Transit will cost me $53,335 after my $6,000 private offer but that's also irrelevant until that Transit is built, delivered to the dealer, and sitting in my driveway.

 

[GotDiesel?]

You are still going to be faced with the high costs for service and more limited supply of qualified Sprinter techs at dealerships.

 

[Landcruiser]

What's it actually going to cost?

Apples to apples, gas AWD Transit vs gas AWD Sprinter?

I bought a 4x4 170 Sprinter in 2021 for $60,000. No mark up. No bullshit. Dealers are asking $80,000 for the same van today but that's irrelevant. That's a true 4x4 and a 6 cylinder diesel.

My 2022/2023 AWD Transit will cost me $53,335 after my $6,000 private offer but that's also irrelevant until that Transit is built, delivered to the dealer, and sitting in my driveway.

Just out of curiosity - are you changing from a 2021 Sprinter to a 2023 Transit?

 

[carringb]

The pre-2023 4WD Sprinter was a 4X4 with selectable engagement of the front drive axle and optional two-speed transfer case.

Just an FYI - the Sprinter was a 4x4 in marketing only. It was actually AWD with a 1/3-front 2/3-rear torque split. The Transfer case only contained the F/R Planetary take-off gear-set. And it wasn't selectable on the fly. The "low-range" was an aux planetary for the low-range reduction, like an old Aux-transmission.

 

[kdenning]

Just out of curiosity - are you changing from a 2021 Sprinter to a 2023 Transit?

No, I built that 170 4x4 for my wife and I and then had to sell it to help with the down payment on our house. That was our house on wheels that we had to sell to buy our house on land lol.

In the meantime we bought a 2021 RWD Sprinter that I built and will be delivering to it's new owner this weekend and that sale will help fund our AWD Transit. We tried to get by with RWD in Lake Tahoe, CA and it did not work. Not for us anyway.

As far as money goes, our 2021 RWD (6 cylinder diesel) sprinter was $49,000 MSRP so the $53,335 AWD Transit (MSRP after $6,000 rebate) isn't much of a leap.

 

[kdenning]

You are still going to be faced with the high costs for service and more limited supply of qualified Sprinter techs at dealerships.

This is the #1 factor for me when I was shopping for another van and comparing the AWD Transit to the 4x4 or AWD Sprinter.

We got the "10 starts remaining" error code before limp mode because of an issue with the DEF sensor in our 2021 RWD Sprinter.

There was absolutely no way we could get from where we were to where we needed to be in 10 starts and no MB dealership could work on our van for at least two weeks. We called every dealer in Southern CA and most dealers between Southern CA and Reno.

Fortunately I flushed the DEF reservoir and the sensor reset itself. The catch is......if the sensor didn't reset itself, I'm under the impression that the van would have gone into limp mode after 10 starts regardless of whether or not there was an actual DEF issue.

Our van doesn't spend much time in Baja or remote areas of the Western US but it spends enough time there that I'd hate to get that 10 starts until limp mode while we're out there.....it was bad enough getting it when we were surrounded by MB dealers.

That's all anecdotal though and it obviously wasn't an actual issue but I know for certain I wont' have that issue in a gas transit so there's that.

 

[GapRunr]

As Janus9 mentioned The Transit now outsells Sprinter by 2-3X is USA market. I doubt that the Sprinter will ever be as popular as the Transit in USA market. Globally they compete head-to-head.

In overall sales the Transit will always sell 2X-3X more, but if you take out fleet sales and look at personal vehicle and RV sales I'll bet the numbers are a lot closer, maybe even in favour of the Sprinter. I posted in another thread about a recent 7,000+ mile trip I took across Canada and back across the US, and saw significantly more Sprinters than Transits. Heck I even saw an Iveco Daily 4x4 in CA.

Last weekend I went to the local RV show, and in the van based selections they were mostly Sprinters, with a couple of Transits and a couple of Promasters thrown in.

 

[surly Bill]

our recent trip over the Sierras and through the desert to Nevada/Utah on backroads saw many more Sprinter "adventure vans" than Transits. Most were off-the-shelf camper vans like Revels. I'd say at least 2/3 of the vans of ALL makes I saw were off-the-shelf and not DIY.

 

[Janus9]

Last weekend I went to the local RV show, and in the van based selections they were mostly Sprinters, with a couple of Transits and a couple of Promasters thrown in.

No doubt the sprinter dominates the class B and high end camper van conversion space.

The class Bs, Mercedes and Transit based, are getting so close to being regularly priced at around $170-$200k. The people who have that kind of money to spend on a RV mostly prefer the sprinter because they feel it is the best, even though many aren’t very educated on the different vans.

If thats what the customer wants, that is what the customer gets.

Talk to them. You will hear them talk about Mercedes is a luxury brand, and Diesel engines last so long and get so much better mpg, which really isn’t nearly as true today compared to pre emission times.

On the other hand the promaster is the other big class B offering because if you can’t afford “the best”, you get the cheapest.

The transit is more about value, the best performing and most capabilities for the buck, but that is a hard sell unless you are the type of person who does a lot of research.

It really shows in all the different local businesses that use panel vans, contractors, shuttles etc….. Being a business choice, they will be much more educated on the different vans before they invest funds, and what you see is almost zero sprinters now. Almost all transits and promasters.

I took my wife to the Denver airport this week. Every single passenger van shuttle I saw was a transit. Not one sprinter.

So, can the class B and high end custom camper van industries alone support sprinters in the USA, because it looks like the transit and promaster has taken most of their other business.

I also think the expediting business still uses sprinters in large numbers, so add that in.

 

[brivalen]

I love my 2020 AWD transit but if I needed a van asap and I could get an AWD Sprinter significantly quicker, that's where I'd go. My business can't wait.

 

[memck]

Our previous primary vehicle was a 2010 Mercedes ML350 diesel, which was our only vehicle until we got the Transit. More or less the same 6cyl turbodiesel that's been in tons of Sprinters and the same 4matic AWD that'll be in the new Sprinter AWD.

A main reason I didn't buy a Sprinter is because of my ownership experience with that MB diesel. I replaced oil seals, rear main seal, turbo, EGR system, DEF pump/heater assembly, and most recently the entire emissions system. Most of those were under an extended warranty, and the entire emissions replacement was part of an EPA recall, but it's not just about whether I had to pay out of pocket for those repairs, it's about down time and opportunity cost.

I just couldn't imagine putting myself in a situation where something happened with the van while travelling cross-country and I might not have a knowledgeable Sprinter mechanic for 100's of miles. Not to mention parts availability and emissions system headaches (I've been stuck in limp home mode twice over 100 miles from home in the MB.)

My MB recently sat sidelined for 8 months waiting for an EGR valve that apparently wasn't available anywhere globally. Conveniently I had a nice, new Ford Transit that was happy to take over daily driving chores while MB got their act together.

Now our daily driver is a new Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid (super exciting, I know.) And the Mercedes is sitting in the driveway again with another emissions check engine light that I need to take it back to the dealer to fix under warranty before I can finally sell it and be done with Mercedes Benz diesel engines for good.

So yeah, there are probably a lot of people with more money than sense buying $150k+ vans on the Sprinter platform. But those of us knowledgeable enough to build our own or depend on our vans for our livelihood may be part of the reason you're able to find Sprinters on the lot more easily than you can find Transits.

 

[gregoryx]

Also went from 2011 Sprinter 170 to 2020 Transit AWD long-tall. Decision was easy based on the above-mentioned service issues with the Sprinter - both the quantity of problems and the lack of service options. To be fair, the Sprinter had nearly 200K on it when we sold it and we'd gone through a transmission and a handful of emissions parts. We got tired of limping home; but it never left us stranded.

Enter real world. Especially real-world post-C19.

With 30K miles on the Transit, we've encountered a couple of weird quality control issues (from the initial bad body panel issues to the front brake backing plate bolts that FELL OUT and forced a road-side repair) and Ford's approach is terrible. We've tried two different local dealerships for repair work and neither has been great - though there is one mechanic at the one dealer who I now trust, more-or-less.

Although there are hundreds of thousands of these out there, the local dealer repair shops are still treating them like they're so new they're not quite sure about them. And every failure has been blamed on us - and the "build out" - before eventually giving in and repairing the broken bits - in most cases... though they said they could not get a replacement relay for CCP2 and recommended WE contact Ford corporate if we wanted it repaired. Of course, this was after saying we damaged it by USING it and it's not really meant for using.

When we were hit on the freeway near Vegas, the two dealers were a maybe for whether they could look at it - let alone if they'd have parts for the mechanical damage to get us back on the road. They sent us to an old-school shop in the area; at least they were willing to look at it like an old-school car instead of giving excuses. But when they tried to order wheel lugs to replace the bent and broken ones, they learned that Ford only sells a complete hub - $600, instead of the lugs - AND they were back-ordered for at least two weeks. We found lugs that matched enough at Napa and got on the road.

But all expectations of Ford being so much better than MB for the service? We had the same experiences with the MB: only an old-school shop that just tries to figure things out was useful in either case. And plenty of that at ~200K, of course.

Then there's the repairs for the accident damage: insane delays for parts and the shop sent the rig to the Ford dealer to get the slider they broke repaired (they couldn't repair it) and a couple other things. IOW, not much better than the MB experiences.

I realize a lot of this is the post-covid world... but when we were insulted by the MB dealers they were really smooth and nice about it; the Ford folks treat us like... well... like we bought a /Ford/... low-lifes that we are.

So... I wouldn't hesitate to buy the MB for the service reasons; I don't think the Ford is any better for parts or service in the current real-world.

 

[memck]

Great points @gregoryx - I'm only 10k mi in with the Transit, so thankfully I have yet to deal with Ford dealers about anything. Almost all my MB work was done at a local Euro-specialist that I've had a great relationship with, who also built a Skoolie and had been super-excited about the van (and very much affirmed my inclination to stay away from other modern MB diesels.)

If I'm stuck somewhere in a pinch I'll feel a lot better about finding a random old-school shop that's at least had their hands on a 3.5 ecoboost gen1 before touching mine.

 

[njvagabond]

I just saw VW Crafter (really long wheelbase) pulling a very big enclosed utility trailer. Did not get a look to see what it was all about since it was going in the opposite direction. WTF.

 

[gregoryx]

...Almost all my MB work was done at a local Euro-specialist that I've had a great relationship with, who also built a Skoolie and had been super-excited about the van (and very much affirmed my inclination to stay away from other modern MB diesels.)
...

This is certainly the biggest factor - and brand agnostic. Up to a couple years ago, I never had any issues or complaints with the "conversion" side of it. If there was something that I had to remove to permit maintenance work, that was my job then the mechanics could do theirs. Now, it's the first thing out of the tow-truck driver's mouth, the dealer service department, the insurance company, and the roadside assistance: that's a conversion; we don't touch those.

Interestingly, we got a few, "we don't touch Sprinters," when we had issues; but there was always an old-school shop somewhere that would address old-school issues. A leaking fuel line is a leaking fuel line. 🤷‍♀️

With the Transit, I'm shocked to see the dealers (more than once now) beg off as the slider failure must be related to our build out; and the CCP2 relay is our fault from the build out; and more of that.

This was a heavy factor for our build model: everything MUST be removable so the van can be serviced. It took less than two hours to strip the whole passenger side back to bare when the power slider failed; then the mechanic was willing to concede that nothing had been touched by our build. Same with the body work: "we don't touch conversions"; then, "oh, with everything removed... sure."

My gut-feel is that this is the biggest issue now: the build-out. And the rest of it is all going to fall into the same bucket for both brands: first 100K will probably be okay - or at least I can argue it until they cover it under warranty; then it looks like it will be the same as the Sprinter... meaning, I better find an old-school-ish mechanic I trust at that point. 😏

 

[bradoemba]

MB only sold about 5000 4x4s each year in the US...but you can bet that almost all were built into conversions (though I have seen the power company driving a few). I haven't seen numbers for how many Transit AWDs were built, but the ski resort parking lot that has been dominated by Sprinters has more and more Transits every year. So while Transit has outsold the Sprinter, not sure it's fair to say that it's more popular with the #vanlife crown. I think MB could have sold another 30k 4x4s if they had them available. The used ones for sale noted above are comparing 2015-2022 sprinters vs. 2020-2022 transits.

One reason I bought the Transit is because I am of the opinion (based on driving each for 1000s of miles) that the AWD is superior to the MB 4x4 for snow and gravel roads. (Transit is a much nicer driving experience too.) MB wins on ground clearance, but I'm not rock-crawling. Seems that the new MB AWD may even the playing field, and the new 4cyl is rumored to be much quicker. Also heard that the new drivetrain got the DEQ cert so they should be hitting dealer lots soon. Like the Transits, virtually all are presold so they won't likely be easy to find but you could probably order one. (But the Sprinters also have supply chain issues for certain options like the big info screen and swivel seats, for example.)