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Bummer. Thanks for the update.

I looked at the area just now, and I actually think there’s some good opportunity for a shield mounted to the sub-frame.

Two options I see:

1. Mount an L-shaped piece of bent sheet metal with vertical bolts into the sub frame just in front and above the CV. This keeps the shield tucked away from the turned tire. I’d drill new holes use through-bolts and nuts and do it that way.

Tire Vehicle Car Automotive tire Automotive lighting



2. Mount a bent piece like this to these two bottom sub-frame screws . This is a little more “skid_plate” esque to push sand and rocks down and away. You’d have to make sure it won’t run into the turned tire as well. The other downside is loosening those two bolts, not sure if they’re single use? Also not sure if anything can shift if they’re loosened or if the van needs to be jacked up in some way. I’d make the bracket have horse shoe-shaped openings for the bolts so the bolts only have to be loosened 1/4” of an inch to slide the bracket in inbetween the bolt heads and subrframe, before being re-tightened. Assumes they aren’t torque to yield bolts.

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if there’s enough interest, I can whip up some brackets in CAD. If we get 5 or more people interested, it’d probably be quite cheap per bracket (I’d use send-cut-send and get them powder coated).
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Bummer. Thanks for the update.

I looked at the area just now, and I actually think there’s some good opportunity for a shield mounted to the sub-frame.

Two options I see:

1. Mount an L-shaped piece of bent sheet metal with vertical bolts into the sub frame just in front and above the CV. This keeps the shield tucked away from the turned tire. I’d drill new holes use through-bolts and nuts and do it that way.

View attachment 173904


2. Mount a bent piece like this to these two bottom sub-frame screws . This is a little more “skid_plate” esque to push sand and rocks down and away. You’d have to make sure it won’t run into the turned tire as well. The other downside is loosening those two bolts, not sure if they’re single use? Also not sure if anything can shift if they’re loosened or if the van needs to be jacked up in some way. I’d make the bracket have horse shoe-shaped openings for the bolts so the bolts only have to be loosened 1/4” of an inch to slide the bracket in inbetween the bolt heads and subrframe, before being re-tightened. Assumes they aren’t torque to yield bolts.

View attachment 173927

if there’s enough interest, I can whip up some brackets in CAD. If we get 5 or more people interested, it’d probably be quite cheap per bracket (I’d use send-cut-send and get them powder coated).
Nice! I like both of those ideas. The lower one seems promising due to the skid plate action. But before making a CAD, we'd need to do some testing with cardboard. The hard part is seeing how a cardboard prototype fairs at all suspension max and mins, all wheel angles, the combination of the two, etc. Without a shop to lift the van up and play around, I'd need to make something, attach it ghetto-style, then go drive around on some gnarly roads. Right now I don't have time for that, but I might in the near future. Thanks for the good ideas, argo. I'll try to loop back here when I get more time, or please let us all know if you come up with any protypes and get additional input.

One other consideration is that anything we put down there is going to be met with extreme conditions, possible the worst of any skid plate. If it gets torn up and ripped off it could do a lot of damage. That's why just replacing the axle and being cautious about high center berms is currently the most tempting route.

Cheers.
 

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it would be interesting to see if a skid plate would stop the problem. I am not as sure as you that it is the road, it may be the extreme angle of the CV joint. Those with Quigley or Quadvan conversions don't seem to tear boots and the joint has to be fairly close to the same spot. The skid plate would help figure where the problem is coming from.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
it would be interesting to see if a skid plate would stop the problem. I am not as sure as you that it is the road, it may be the extreme angle of the CV joint. Those with Quigley or Quadvan conversions don't seem to tear boots and the joint has to be fairly close to the same spot. The skid plate would help figure where the problem is coming from.
So that's what we've been discussing, a DIY skid plate since no one makes one for it currently.

The reason I'm convinced it's the "road" is that I punctured the first boot within hours of driving across a very high center-berm sandy jeep trail with buried rocks, and I recall noting the scraping noises were particularly bad that morning. The second boot showed signs of being punctured shortly after driving down an even higher center-berm sandy road leading to the beach in Texas.

I probably push the van harder than most, which explains why there are many hundreds of VC lift kit owners, but only a few of us that have broken the boot. If it were just the angle, all VC lift kit owners would likely be having this issue.

Cheers.

Here's a shot of one small section of the long road that punctured the boot the first time. What you can't see are all the buried rocks. They've taken out oil pans on other vehicles in this stretch. The only ones you see are ones people hit and then pushed off to the side. You can read more about the first few times I drove through this area here.
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I guess I still wonder why Quigly and Quadvan owners don't experience the same issue then.
 

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The hard part is seeing how a cardboard prototype fairs
Corrugated polypropylene aka Coroplast. Available in a range of thicknesses.
Perhaps save a few bucks and make some lemonade form one of many ugly political lawn signs that litter out streets.
FWIW - stuff is nearly impossible to glue, so fasteners or tabs/slots are the way to go about fabricating.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 · (Edited)
I guess I still wonder why Quigly and Quadvan owners don't experience the same issue then.
Probably for the same reason nearly all Van Compass owners don't: they're just not pushing the limits with high center-berm sandy/rocky roads. If you knew every Quigley and Quadvan owner, and every VC owner, and every problem they've had, you might have better data. Right now I only know of one other guy who punctured his boot on the same side, and I know for sure the road described above did the damage.

I've only see one other van go down that road at Death Valley. It was a 4x4 Sprinter and they got stuck, so my brother had to help tow them out with his Jeep.

I've learned to traverse roads like that by keeping momentum up, but the cost is you have greater forces at play that can do damage like this. Read that link I posted above. It describes the unique challenge of that kind of road in a big van.

Plus, silicone bounces back to it's original shape because it's so flexible, but look at the OEM boot. It's pretty clear a rock or piece of wood punctured and made that indent in the stiffer material Ford uses:
Automotive tire Tire Water Tread Synthetic rubber

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
Corrugated polypropylene aka Coroplast. Available in a range of thicknesses.
Perhaps save a few bucks and make some lemonade form one of many ugly political lawn signs that litter out streets.
FWIW - stuff is nearly impossible to glue, so fasteners or tabs/slots are the way to go about fabricating.
I just meant the effort of going through the whole experiment. I think cardboard can work, but I don't have time right now to get that far into it. The lawn side is a good idea though, I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

Cheers.
 

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Probably for the same reason nearly all Van Compass owners don't: they're just not pushing the limits with high center-berm sandy/rocky roads.

I've only see one other van go down that road at Death Valley. It was a 4x4 Sprinter and they got stuck, so my brother had to help tow them out with his Jeep.

I've learned to traverse roads like that by keeping momentum up, but the cost is you have greater forces at play that can do damage like this. Read that link I posted above. It describes the unique challenge of that kind of road in a big van.

Cheers.
Lol. You must be the most ruff'n'tuff guy out there. I really don't think that it is just that you "push it harder" than everyone else. I have found that the vast majority of times I have had equipment failure when off roading that operator error was the main problem. I might guess that a combination of the high angle, rough roads and shall I say, driving style may be the cause.

Frankly, I don't think that an AWD Transit would be capable of getting to some of the places I often go. The lack of a low gear transfer case and the Ford "traction control" likely limit what they can do. Perhaps this is why you have to keep the speed up as much as you say and this leads to damage through a combination of rough roads, extreme CV angle and rough handling. Not saying that they aren't a capable set-up but dismissing all Quigly and Quadvan owners of not covering as difficult terrain as you do seems rather unlikely to me.
 

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Right now I only know of one other guy who punctured his boot on the same side, and I know for sure the road described above did the damage.
I'm certain we were both in some other thread with my CV boot woes, but my 2020 likely came pre-punctured from the factory or the stock boot is made of paper and was damaged within a couple hundred miles of leaving the lot on paved highways.

I did not look under the van until I did my first oil change (~5000mi), but recalled the crunchiness sound going from forward to reverse and back from the original cross country drive home (but never thought it would be a failed CV joint so soon, and just it being a Ford). There were other threads that preceded mine asking what the grease was splattered on the underside of their vans, and those were clearly CV boot failures, so I suspect extreme road conditions aren't required to get the boots to fail (unless improperly installed in the first place).
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 · (Edited)
Lol. You must be the most ruff'n'tuff guy out there. I really don't think that it is just that you "push it harder" than everyone else. I have found that the vast majority of times I have had equipment failure when off roading that operator error was the main problem. I might guess that a combination of the high angle, rough roads and shall I say, driving style may be the cause.

Frankly, I don't think that an AWD Transit would be capable of getting to some of the places I often go. The lack of a low gear transfer case and the Ford "traction control" likely limit what they can do. Perhaps this is why you have to keep the speed up as much as you say and this leads to damage through a combination of rough roads, extreme CV angle and rough handling. Not saying that they aren't a capable set-up but dismissing all Quigly and Quadvan owners of not covering as difficult terrain as you do seems rather unlikely to me.
Like I said, the only large van in the last 3 years I've seen go down that road at Death Valley was a Sprinter 4x4 that got stuck. But in any event, you seem convinced that Quigley's and Quadvan's can't puncture a CV boot, which runs counter to just about every 4x4 repair place I've ever visited. The guy at the place I brought mine had a busted one his own 4x4 truck and said it had been that way for a year. He just put up with the grease splatter. Van Compass said their tacoma pretty much always had a busted boot. It happens. You just haven't been there yet. You'll see.

Did you bother to look at that photo? Can you not see the indentation where the hole is? Do you want to meetup at Death Valley and take your van down that road at a crawl? That'll be fun to watch. You'll get stuck and start asking for help and then saying this road is impassible in a van. Lol. It's passible, but not without risk to the CV boot. I made it 20-30 times before a rock finally clipped it.

If you took a minute to read the thread I linked which explains the unique challenge of that type of road, and if you took a minute to even bother reading this full thread and looking at the photo of the busted boot with a hole/indentation in it, you might learn something.

Instead you're all stuck up on Quigley and trying to turn this into some kind of VC vs Quigley debate. Sorry, not feeling your "I read the headline and then started making rash comments" vibe. Time for an "ignore" button.

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 · (Edited)
I'm certain we were both in some other thread with my CV boot woes, but my 2020 likely came pre-punctured from the factory or the stock boot is made of paper and was damaged within a couple hundred miles of leaving the lot on paved highways.

I did not look under the van until I did my first oil change (~5000mi), but recalled the crunchiness sound going from forward to reverse and back from the original cross country drive home (but never thought it would be a failed CV joint so soon, and just it being a Ford). There were other threads that preceded mine asking what the grease was splattered on the underside of their vans, and those were clearly CV boot failures, so I suspect extreme road conditions aren't required to get the boots to fail (unless improperly installed in the first place).
I'm sure boots do break now and then from other factors. I do recall one other post with a guy who had a bad clamp from the factory. I remember the grease was still green and new in his photo. Was that yours?

In any event, what I'm talking about is taking the van out on silty deep sand high center-berm 4x4 roads with buried rocks, branches, etc, and then finding the boot busted within hours. That's pretty straightforward. The photo I posted above pretty clearly shows the puncture.

Cheers.
 

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Like I said, the only large van in the last 3 years I've seen go down that road at Death Valley was a Sprinter 4x4 that got stuck. But in any event, you seem convinced that Quigley's and Quadvan's can't puncture a CV boot, which runs counter to just about every 4x4 repair place I've ever visited. The guy at the place I brought mine had a busted one his own 4x4 truck and said it had been that way for a year. He just put up with the grease splatter. Van Compass said their tacoma pretty much always had a busted boot. It happens. You just haven't been there yet. You'll see.

Did you bother to look at that photo? Can you not see the indentation where the hole is? Do you want to meetup at Death Valley and take your van down that road at a crawl? That'll be fun to watch. You'll get stuck and start asking for help and then saying this road is impassible in a van. Lol. It's passible, but not without risk to the CV boot. I made it 20-30 times before a rock finally clipped it.

If you took a minute to read the thread I linked which explains the unique challenge of that type of road, and if you took a minute to even bother reading this full thread and looking at the photo of the busted boot with a hole/indentation in it, you might learn something.

Instead you're all stuck up on Quigley and trying to turn this into some kind of VC vs Quigley debate. Sorry, not feeling your "I read the headline and then started making rash comments" vibe. Time for an "ignore" button.

Cheers.
I by no means think that a Quadvan or Quigly can't puncture a CV boot. You popped two in short order. That requires taking a step back and looking for other possible causes in my book.

The road in Death Valley is by no means unique. There are a lot of bad roads out there. I've been all over DV (not in this van) and am very familiar with the road conditions there. The odds are very high that I have been on the road you are talking about. I have been exploring the CA desert for 35 years in all sorts of vehicles. And seen roads worse than what is out in DV. DV isn't some sort of gold standard of bad roads. Plenty out there. And the whole "meet out there" urination contest type thing is unnecessary and contributes nothing to the conversation.

I'm sorry it makes you upset that there is a possibility that the extreme angle of the CV is a contributing factor. It may indeed be the price of doing business with the AWD in those conditions. All vehicles and systems have their limitations. For one example, I am sure that the AWD would do better in snow and hydroplaning situations. There are situations where a Quadvan or Quigly with a low gear transfer case and Eaton Truetracs will do better than the AWD.

In any case, there are many folks out there running roads just as bad or worse than you are. Maybe it is simply bad luck that you have blown two CV boots in short order. Or maybe not. If you can take a breath and be objective about it you may drill down to the root cause if it wasn't just bad luck.

In any case, have fun and be safe out there.
 

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There seams to be pretty clear cause and effect with Van Gogh’s blown CV boots, which is driving in deep rocky sand with a high center berm. Driving in that deep of sand for extended periods is something I doubt very many people do in their van.

If the high angle of the CV itself was causing the problem, there would be way more vans with blown CV boots right now.
 
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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
If the high angle of the CV itself was causing the problem, there would be way more vans with blown CV boots right now.
Exactly. It really is these kinds of roads. I just like going down them because they lead to places with fewer people. The road in Texas had only one other truck out there on the beach on that side of the seawall. If you went to the main road on the other side there were cars and trucks for miles with blaring radios and drunk people everywhere.

The Death Valley road has signs warning people at both ends (for good reason) but I love that stretch of road because it gets me out to an area I feel like I have all to myself, or when I'm with family, all to our group. If the price is a busted cv boot every now and then, or ideally figuring out how to prevent it, that's worth it.

This was the Texas beach road that got the silicone boot. It's hard to see from satellite view but the center berm is crazy high, especially from the middle to lower right where the sand gets really thick. I bet 9 out of 10 vans that tried to go down it would get stuck. Most wouldn't even try. The berm was rubbing against the undercarriage almost the entire time. And there's all kind of hurricane debris along it. Old tree branches, pieces of old metal umbrellas, etc. But once I got to the beach, it was worth it. Had good day fishing, met a gal out there with her dog and her guitar singing old Gillian Welch tunes. Good times.
Water Wood Trunk Landscape Asphalt


Cheers.
 

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I wonder if there is something different about the Quadvan/Quigley conversion vs the factory AWD when it comes to CV boot openings.
I notice on my Quadvan that the steering protects the CV a bit
Tire Automotive tire Wheel Tread Vehicle brake


Also I agree that there is a big difference between deep rutted silt/sand/mud (with hidden dangers) vs rock crawling.
I do both and the deep stuff packs in the junk way worse.
Tire Sky Land vehicle Vehicle Car



I was buried to the belly, flat on my skid plates with the tires not touching the bottom of the ruts thanks to Trophy Trucks on 40's going through before me. Silt looks like nothing until you hit it, we were sinking another foot to 18in in this stuff when walking.
Sky Tire Cloud Vehicle Wheel
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 · (Edited)
I wonder if there is something different about the Quadvan/Quigley conversion vs the factory AWD when it comes to CV boot openings.

Also I agree that there is a big difference between deep rutted silt/sand/mud (with hidden dangers) vs rock crawling.
I do both and the deep stuff packs in the junk way worse.
The sand in your last photo looks pretty clean, but glad to hear you know how it goes with high center berms. The Death Valley road that got mine is filled with huge buried rocks. It's really something else. You can see lots of oil pan drainouts along that stretch. But that's why I like it. I get a huge section of Death Valley, the best section of the entire park imho, all to myself.

Your quadvan setup appears to have the same setup for the inner CV boot. I commented on this in my original write up in this thread. The outer boot is better protected because it's directly under the control arm, and the vehicle's wheels typically sit in a deep impression made by previous drivers. The ground only slopes up and higher toward the center, near the inner CV boot, which makes the longer passenger-side half-shaft's inner CV boot the most susceptible to debris that gets kicked up and over the lower control arm. On the AWD the front edge of the inner CV boot is just a tad forward of the lower control arm; it looks to be in the same position in your photo. I used some arrows to try to indicate the shape of the ground and what's happening:
Tire Wheel Automotive tire Motor vehicle Tread

And again, I made it down that death valley road 20-30 times before busting the boot. The road in Texas got it the first time, but that road was much worse. The center berm was so high it was constant scraping. But the reward was very much worth it, and I'd do it again if I had a way to protect the inner CV boot.

For now I just won't go down roads as bad as the Texas one. Anyone on the forum who wants to meetup next spring and run their van down that road a few times is welcome to it. I'll bring a camera and film how it goes, then post it here. Should make for some good entertainment.

Cheers.
 

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For now I just won't go down roads as bad as the Texas one. Anyone on the forum who wants to meetup next spring and run their van down that road a few times is welcome to it. I'll bring a camera and film how it goes, then post it here. Should make for some good entertainment.
Hrm... Actually, that seems like a rather good idea. A GoPro on a magnetic mount may give you a bit more insight into WTAF is happening (proviso you're willing to risk it - it's hellaciously easy for me to sit in the comfort of my chair here and suggest you endanger your van :whistle: )
 
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