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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Figured worth posting this as its own thread for future reference. First, the story... then the Ford issue.

Last Friday, we were on our way from southern California to Zion National Park in Utah. About 10 miles before Primm - at the Cali-Nevada border - some idiot came up on us fast, swerved at the last minute, lost control and smacked into the passenger side of the van. Shoved us off the freeway into the center - which, thankfully, had plenty of runway and nothing in the way. (A few seconds earlier might have sent us into a culvert - small blessings.)

After the dust settled (literally), we were pleased to see the body damage was superficial - the power slider and passenger doors still worked fine. But then we realized we probably came pretty close to losing the right front wheel. Two lugs/studs sheared off, one bent pretty bad. And it turned out the other three were very bent as well. Glad we didn't try to drive on it.

Tire Wheel Car Automotive tire Synthetic rubber


Of course, his Camry versus our 9,000 pounds... his was NOT drive-able.
Car Tire Wheel Vehicle Automotive tail & brake light



So... call the two Ford dealers in Vegas and they both say, "bring it in," followed by, "we'll try to take a look at it today if we can." One adds that they have 40 cars in queue... ugh. I ask about alternatives and he points me to a small shop that has helped people out before.

George of Big G was a character. And said he'd do what he could. So we towed it there. Old-school crappy place; kind of place I'd feel comfortable with all my old beaters over the years... but felt a little odd with the fresh new rig.
Product Engineering Automotive design Table Eyewear



Hours later, we finally get George and one of his guys' attention and start trying to track down the studs. George makes phone calls and they all say that you CAN'T buy the studs... only the whole hub. And they're back-ordered from Ford until June. Not good. Go back and get the mechanic's attention... knock a couple studs out of the hub... and start looking for replacements. Ultimately, get slightly longer ones from Napa and pull them back in - which would've been really hard to do without actual air-drive tools. Doubtful a big lever on my wrench would've done it.

Car Tire Wheel Vehicle Automotive tire



The only studs we could get were about 7mm too long (M14 x 1.50 x 60mm was stock, as far as we could tell - these were 67mm length). Managed to get them in and get new lug nuts on and we got to Zion about 8 hours later than planned. But we made it. Photo here is actually Sunday morning as we geared up for the Subway canyon adventure - hence wetsuits as well as climbing gear. I kinda like the look of the black studs and nuts; maybe do it on the other three wheels. 馃榿

Wheel Tire Car Vehicle Land vehicle


Gotta throw in a shot from Saturday's session at Namaste Wall. 'Cause this is really pretty rock. And climbs well. I was feeling too out-of-shape to lead it; but it was fun on top-rope with some hang-dog on Namaste (5.11d ~140' - pretty overhanging angle). It's an absolutely beautiful route on a beautiful wall.

Sky Bedrock Natural landscape Terrain Mountain
 

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Figured worth posting this as its own thread for future reference. First, the story... then the Ford issue.

Last Friday, we were on our way from southern California to Zion National Park in Utah. About 10 miles before Primm - at the Cali-Nevada border - some idiot came up on us fast, swerved at the last minute, lost control and smacked into the passenger side of the van. Shoved us off the freeway into the center - which, thankfully, had plenty of runway and nothing in the way. (A few seconds earlier might have sent us into a culvert - small blessings.)

After the dust settled (literally), we were pleased to see the body damage was superficial - the power slider and passenger doors still worked fine. But then we realized we probably came pretty close to losing the right front wheel. Two lugs/studs sheared off, one bent pretty bad. And it turned out the other three were very bent as well. Glad we didn't try to drive on it.

View attachment 171869

Of course, his Camry versus our 9,000 pounds... his was NOT drive-able.
View attachment 171870


So... call the two Ford dealers in Vegas and they both say, "bring it in," followed by, "we'll try to take a look at it today if we can." One adds that they have 40 cars in queue... ugh. I ask about alternatives and he points me to a small shop that has helped people out before.

George of Big G was a character. And said he'd do what he could. So we towed it there. Old-school crappy place; kind of place I'd feel comfortable with all my old beaters over the years... but felt a little odd with the fresh new rig.
View attachment 171871


Hours later, we finally get George and one of his guys' attention and start trying to track down the studs. George makes phone calls and they all say that you CAN'T buy the studs... only the whole hub. And they're back-ordered from Ford until June. Not good. Go back and get the mechanic's attention... knock a couple studs out of the hub... and start looking for replacements. Ultimately, get slightly longer ones from Napa and pull them back in - which would've been really hard to do without actual air-drive tools. Doubtful a big lever on my wrench would've done it.

View attachment 171872


The only studs we could get were about 7mm too long (M14 x 1.50 x 60mm was stock, as far as we could tell - these were 67mm length). Managed to get them in and get new lug nuts on and we got to Zion about 8 hours later than planned. But we made it. Photo here is actually Sunday morning as we geared up for the Subway canyon adventure - hence wetsuits as well as climbing gear. I kinda like the look of the black studs and nuts; maybe do it on the other three wheels. 馃榿

View attachment 171873

Gotta throw in a shot from Saturday's session at Namaste Wall. 'Cause this is really pretty rock. And climbs well. I was feeling too out-of-shape to lead it; but it was fun on top-rope with some hang-dog on Namaste (5.11d ~140' - pretty overhanging angle). It's an absolutely beautiful route on a beautiful wall.

View attachment 171875
so your basically suggesting we all order and carry with us an extra set of wheel studs?
 

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Figured worth posting this as its own thread for future reference. First, the story... then the Ford issue.

Last Friday, we were on our way from southern California to Zion National Park in Utah. About 10 miles before Primm - at the Cali-Nevada border - some idiot came up on us fast, swerved at the last minute, lost control and smacked into the passenger side of the van. Shoved us off the freeway into the center - which, thankfully, had plenty of runway and nothing in the way. (A few seconds earlier might have sent us into a culvert - small blessings.)

After the dust settled (literally), we were pleased to see the body damage was superficial - the power slider and passenger doors still worked fine. But then we realized we probably came pretty close to losing the right front wheel. Two lugs/studs sheared off, one bent pretty bad. And it turned out the other three were very bent as well. Glad we didn't try to drive on it.

View attachment 171869

Of course, his Camry versus our 9,000 pounds... his was NOT drive-able.
View attachment 171870


So... call the two Ford dealers in Vegas and they both say, "bring it in," followed by, "we'll try to take a look at it today if we can." One adds that they have 40 cars in queue... ugh. I ask about alternatives and he points me to a small shop that has helped people out before.

George of Big G was a character. And said he'd do what he could. So we towed it there. Old-school crappy place; kind of place I'd feel comfortable with all my old beaters over the years... but felt a little odd with the fresh new rig.
View attachment 171871


Hours later, we finally get George and one of his guys' attention and start trying to track down the studs. George makes phone calls and they all say that you CAN'T buy the studs... only the whole hub. And they're back-ordered from Ford until June. Not good. Go back and get the mechanic's attention... knock a couple studs out of the hub... and start looking for replacements. Ultimately, get slightly longer ones from Napa and pull them back in - which would've been really hard to do without actual air-drive tools. Doubtful a big lever on my wrench would've done it.

View attachment 171872


The only studs we could get were about 7mm too long (M14 x 1.50 x 60mm was stock, as far as we could tell - these were 67mm length). Managed to get them in and get new lug nuts on and we got to Zion about 8 hours later than planned. But we made it. Photo here is actually Sunday morning as we geared up for the Subway canyon adventure - hence wetsuits as well as climbing gear. I kinda like the look of the black studs and nuts; maybe do it on the other three wheels. 馃榿

View attachment 171873

Gotta throw in a shot from Saturday's session at Namaste Wall. 'Cause this is really pretty rock. And climbs well. I was feeling too out-of-shape to lead it; but it was fun on top-rope with some hang-dog on Namaste (5.11d ~140' - pretty overhanging angle). It's an absolutely beautiful route on a beautiful wall.

View attachment 171875
Ouch. So, are you going to order the ford replace hub?
 

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Great reminder that 鈥渃losing the gap鈥 is just not worth it when people get angry about being behind a big van and try to pass inappropriately (not saying this is what happened here). Pretty impressive all that really seems like that broke was the wheel studs honestly. Curious if anything else in the suspension got tweaked.

The Georges of the world make it go round
 

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Gotta throw in a shot from Saturday's session at Namaste Wall. 'Cause this is really pretty rock. And climbs well...
Sorry to see this. Nice job making the best of it and making some time to focus on other stuff. Glad to hear you're back safely on the road.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Sounds like good old George came through. But... studs you can't (supposedly) replace? I guess if you dent the hood you just buy a whole new front clip then? 馃檮

Glad it wasn't much worse, but that is really annoying on Ford's part.
Yeah... I really can't see why Ford says they're not replaceable. Maybe @cosmicjumperalex can pipe in to give a sensible explanation?


so your basically suggesting we all order and carry with us an extra set of wheel studs?
Mostly, I'm curious what ELSE they're screwing us on. 'Cause that's the only explanation I have. I mean... so much for getting rid of the old Sprinter to buy a more easily-serviced Ford... 馃槧


Ouch. So, are you going to order the ford replace hub?
Probably what will happen by whomever repairs it correctly. I'm trying to coordinate with the insurance folks first. Then I'll have to negotiate who's repairing it and how - 'cause it isn't going to sit for months while the wait for parts. We'll see...


I think he is suggesting buy two vans so you can get parts.
Practically. I bought two of the CCP2 relays because they were $37 each and had to ship from China. If I could figure what is likely to fail, I mean... 馃し鈥嶁檪锔


Great reminder that 鈥渃losing the gap鈥 is just not worth it when people get angry about being behind a big van and try to pass inappropriately (not saying this is what happened here). Pretty impressive all that really seems like that broke was the wheel studs honestly. Curious if anything else in the suspension got tweaked.

The Georges of the world make it go round
In this case, pretty sure he was not paying attention - likely on his phone based on his drifting in the lane then panicking and swerving at the last second. Jackass blamed "the Camry anti-lock brakes made me lose control" - and that's what he told the highway patrol dude (who we called because he didn't have his license or insurance info with him). But when he saw the video it shifted a little to the "collision avoidance" thing; likely meaning it flashed red and beeped at him and scared him into grabbing the wheel.

The videos are here - action starts after half-way point. The first video is the rear-view - you can see him coming up. The second video is the front-view - you can see my son was driving quite mellow. He had cruise control at 75mph (in a 70mph zone) and had changed lanes because it went from 3 to 2 and there was a semi in the right lane.

And, yeah... alignment is a bit off now - though less than I expected. It'll need something replaced that bent, I assume. Seems pretty mild, mechanically. 馃

I've always liked the Georges... been that guy many, many years ago... just a grease-monkey doing whatever it takes to get something working. And trying to pay rent one month at a time.


Glad you're ok! That rock is amazing!!!!!
Ain't it cool!?!

It's a LOT steeper than the photos make it look. Really nice texture on slope-y jugs but overhung. And 140' is a LONG single-pitch route.

Bit more obvious angle:
Bedrock Climbing Climbing shoe Outdoor recreation Rock-climbing equipment


Next day, we were doing this stuff:

Water Plant Bedrock Tree Natural landscape
 

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In this case, pretty sure he was not paying attention - likely on his phone based on his drifting in the lane then panicking and swerving at the last second. Jackass blamed "the Camry anti-lock brakes made me lose control" ...

The videos are here - action starts after half-way point.
Right, because you can see in the rear view camera that it wasn't his poor driving at all 馃檮 Geesh.

Speaking of the videos, is that something fancy/stock in your Transit or an aftermarket dashcam with front and rear cameras? Obviously this sort of thing sucks, but it is satisfying how the excuses and "fibs" just melt away once you have the actual footage....馃槇

Really glad your son didn't lose control on that loose shoulder material you were pushed into. Good on him.
 

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Glad you are all ok.

I like the black studs.

Based on the accident that I was in, if he doesn't have his insurance and license with him - he doesn't have any.

The camera captures are very cool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Right, because you can see in the rear view camera that it wasn't his poor driving at all 馃檮 Geesh.

Speaking of the videos, is that something fancy/stock in your Transit or an aftermarket dashcam with front and rear cameras? Obviously this sort of thing sucks, but it is satisfying how the excuses and "fibs" just melt away once you have the actual footage....馃槇

Really glad your son didn't lose control on that loose shoulder material you were pushed into. Good on him.
Cameras are the VanTop rear-view mirror. It even automatically did that 90-second duration on both front and rear based on the impact - grabbed from 60-seconds previous to 30-seconds after (or something like that) and saved them both. Pretty cool. I think we need a similar camera setup in all our vehicles.


Glad you are all ok.

I like the black studs.

Based on the accident that I was in, if he doesn't have his insurance and license with him - he doesn't have any.

The camera captures are very cool.
I was surprised that the CHP said they checked and he has license and insurance - just didn't have them. I was surprised. But initial mess is still OUR insurance company to get it resolved; then they go back to them for it. Such a pain.
 

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Alright so my opinion on the matter was requested so here goes.

With any component that Ford sells to dealerships and customers there is a manufacturing, shipping and replacement regularity analysis that is performed. In this case when it comes to lug nut studs and the subsequent related hub that they sell it with as an assembly this is done for one of a few likely reasons. What I would bet is the most likely reason is that it is incredibly uncommon to replace just the studs. If Ford want's to sell just the studs along with the hubs that means producing more studs than they currently do, creating packaging materials for those studs specifically, doing additional shipping and handling for those studs, creating a place to store those studs and also adding the studs into all of the parts catalogs and what not. This is actually a considerable amount of money when you start factoring in the scale of Ford motorcompany. If they project that there will be too few sales of the studs alone, the cost benefit analysis returns with do not sell them independent of the hubs. Hubs get replaced for various reasons and are more common that just straight up studs.

I understand that it can be frustrating for the end consumer to be forced into buying an entire hub rather than an individual stud but Ford is not in the business of shorting themselves for your convenience. I don't mean to sound harsh but I am trying to make the point clear.


Also I would like to just state for anyone who may pass through Vegas, there are not only 2 Ford dealerships but actually 4 and also a Lincoln dealership that works on Fords as well. Friendly Ford (this is my place of work), Team Ford (Also owned by the same person who owns Friendly Ford), Country Ford and Gaudin Ford. They are all decent dealerships in my opinion. When I first moved to Las Vegas I actually interviewed at all 4 dealerships and ended up choosing Friendly Ford because I felt the management was best. Greg (he was the main service manager at the time and now is the GM of both Friendly and Team) is the best manager I have ever worked for. I am truly blessed to be working for him. His second in command at the time, Michelle, is now the main service manager and has been trained to operate similarly to Greg. She's been awesome to work for as well, very sharp, takes care of the techs with the utmost respect and has a strong head on her shoulders to keep everyone in line. If anyone is in Vegas or passing through and needs something done, please feel free to come to Friendly Ford. I do gasoline engine repair so if you've got a water pump that is leaking or an internal engine failure/noise that needs addressing, you are also welcome to request me directly if you would like. Management will be happy to send your vehicle direct to me for those repairs. Friendly Ford has won the Ford Presidents award (award given to the top 10 dealerships in the country for customer satisfaction and repair hours completed) 31 times in the last 50 years. We've gotten that award the last 2 years in a row since I've been here.
 

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Great write up! Sorry to read about your encounter with Mad Max, and great job keeping it rubber side down post collision! Just curious, did anyone mention taking your van to a truck stop shop? I love the George Shop, and the photo is priceless, but I have had several friends that have had some amazing work done at truck stops over the years and this seems like something that may be, unfortunately, a fairly common repair.
BTW- amazing to see how clear the water was in the Subway, you were lucky to get it that way!
 

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As usual, super useful post that not only explains the situation but also makes us feel less like we are up against a bureacracy (because it always feels less like that when you have some way of seeing into the process).

It still feels a bit like Ford is making it more of a disposable world which goes a bit contrary to where I would like to see things heading (like "no, we don't sell watch band pins, you just buy a new watch from us -- only we are backordered for months on those, sorry!"). I can see value in making the effort to stock the types of things that can fix a perfectly good bigger thing with less waste. (Especially when said bigger thing is unobtanium.)

OTOH, at least the studs are replaceable if you can find some at a non-Ford parts shop. When I first started reading the thread I thought maybe the whole thing was one monolithic piece, which would be so much worse.

a
I do gasoline engine repair so if you've got a water pump that is leaking or an internal engine failure/noise that needs addressing, you are also welcome to request me directly if you would like. Management will be happy to send your vehicle direct to me for those repairs.
That's great. One thing that has always kept me from going to larger or dealer shops, is how they just wheel your vehicle away into the mysterious "back," and you never know who might be working on it (plus it's probably someone different every time). It'd be like as a person going to a different random doctor every time (to whom you can't even speak). I like that your management is happy to work with customers that way. Sounds like a great place to work.

You and they will know who we are when we come in and ask for "cosmicjumperalex" to work on our Transits 馃槃
 

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You and they will know who we are when we come in and ask for "cosmicjumperalex" to work on our Transits 馃槃
Haha, yeah they would probably be confused by that! Just ask for Alex in engine repair to check out the vehicle, there is only one Alex in our dealership on the repair side so it shouldn't be too confusing for them.
 

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From a studly perspective... I don't think for any of the cars I have owned, that had wheel stud issues, or that I wanted to replace, finding the correct stud has ever been an easy task. This is why ARP is my friend. I used ARP studs in my Transit dually axles when I spaced out my dually rear wheels. I also believe that ARP's products are all of higher quality and strength than any OEM wheel stud. (Back in my autocross days, I would replace all the wheel studs with ARP studs because I was swapping wheels on a regular basis, and the OEM stud's threads didn't hold up very well over time.)

From a dealer perspective, what is the probability that an idiot is going to side swipe your van and hit you on the right front wheel breaking 3 wheel studs. Being hit by lightening might be a higher probability. I think you were lucky finding a shop that was able to source something that worked as fast at they did. These days, most low volume car parts are all kept in regional distribution centers, and not in a local auto parts store or inventory.
 

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From a studly perspective... I don't think for any of the cars I have owned, that had wheel stud issues, or that I wanted to replace, finding the correct stud has ever been an easy task. This is why ARP is my friend. I used ARP studs in my Transit dually axles when I spaced out my dually rear wheels.
Good tip. I'm going to look into the ARP studs. You know, that name sounds familiar and I think that might be the company that makes a special high-strength screw for some boat steering setups.

From a dealer perspective, what is the probability that an idiot is going to side swipe your van and hit you on the right front wheel breaking 3 wheel studs. Being hit by lightening might be a higher probability.
I may have misunderstood, but I don't think it was just that the dealer didn't have the studs in stock; it was that Ford doesn't ever sell them separately (and in this case also has no availability on the hub).

The accident sounds rare, but what about some tire shop staff cross-threading them or something? (Or maybe that doesn't really happen to wheel studs? I do my own whenever possible so not sure if they are vulnerable to that by careless employees.)

Edited to add: I didn't find any M14 x 1.50 x 60mm (or any M14 x 1.50) on the ARP site looking under "wheel" and since it's Saturday I can't call them to see if they make any for the Ford Transit AWD wheel hub.
 

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Greg,

I'm super glad that the driver was able to keep the van under control during the incident: high roof extended must be a lot to manage. Do you think the AWD or any electronics helped keep it under control?

Anything to share regarding the strengths and weaknesses of your build and the sudden deceleration and jostling? I'm in the process of installing an inside propane tank (ala Faroutride) and keeping things in their place during an accident is on the top of my mind.

Thanks,

Mike
 
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