Espar B4L Heater not starting at Elevation

43711 Views 322 Replies 60 Participants Last post by brío, 4 mo ago

idahoconv

Discussion Starter · Jan 25, 2021

So I installed a Espar B4L in my 2020 transit, under the passenger seat and have a problem with the heater starting when I am at elevation.

I live in Boise ID, at around 3k feet elevation, when down here in the valley my heater starts 99% of the time without issues. When I travel to my local ski area around 6800K feet the heater NEVER starts first try and generally will take around 30+ minutes of trying to get the thing started. Once it does starts at elevation, it will run absolutely fine stopping and starting. When I got back down in elevation it also will always start fine, and then back up to elevation I again have the problem.

Ive completely taken apart the entire gas line from the pickup in the tank all the way to the heater, ensuring rise, fittings, etc are perfect... still have the same problem of getting it started at elevation.

Heatso has been sorta OK to work with, but I feel like they dont really know either. They will be sending me a new ECU (when they get them in a couple weeks).

Has anyone had this problem, is there a trick to getting it started I could use until i get the root cause sorted?

Appreciate any pointers!

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RidingRoadsAndTrails

· #141 · Dec 29, 2021

2

I got an update from Espar support:

the latest Espar Repair Instructions doc is attached, the one I posted earlier was obsolete.
I'm back to my original support guy, he insisted the sensors are not the problem and would not address the fact that I could not get valid readings.
He insisted that I use a non-lithium battery as the power source, even though I have a voltage regulator providing 12.44 volts to the heater. He said they have problems with lithium batteries and they don't know why. So they won't support systems with lithium batteries.
He wants me to compare the performance using kerosene as the fuel since there won't be bubbles after the fuel metering pump with kerosene. He wants the fuel quantity test and a 30 minute run test with both fuels.
he is convinced that there is nothing wrong with the heater and the problem is in the fuel delivery. He offered that there could be a heat source causing the fuel in the line to heat up causing a problem like the van's exhaust system or a large wiring harness.

After the phone call, I felt that nothing good was coming of this troubleshooting effort....just despair.

Since the phone call, the heater ran for about 90 minutes for first time ever and then shut itself down. What's different? It is freaking cold out (15°F). The gas in the gas tank is very cold and the heater exhaust pipe is dissipating heat quickly.

Watching the fuel line while the heater is running, I still see about the same amount & size of air bubbles after the fuel metering pump on this cold day compared to warmer days.

I've run several more tests and they are all running far longer than when I've tested in warm weather, but all still fail eventually in the same way (P000129).

Next I ran with a leaf blower pointed at the bottom of the van where the heater is. This was successful for 3 hours until I removed the leaf blower and then the heater shut down again in about 10-15 minutes. I think I can now conclude that the issue is heat buildup below the heater affecting the fuel in the fuel line or the pump.

I took temperature readings shortly after removing the leaf blower while the heater was still running.

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Basically, the fuel line quickly heats from 60 to 100 to 180 in about the last 3 inches approaching the heater.

I had split loom on the fuel line, it is currently off from all the fuel testing I've been doing. The behavior was no different with the split loom in place.

Questions for anyone still reading:
- what is unique about my install that no one else seems to be experiencing this?
- how best to protect the fuel line from the heat?
- how best to contain the heat in the first few inches of the exhaust?

Thanks for following my painful, circuitous journey, hopefully I'm getting close to getting this resolved.

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NW_Freedom

· #142 · Dec 30, 2021

Try using some foil tape used in hvac i guess. Years ago we used it on the bottom of motocross plastic tanks to keep the fuel from boiling as it reflect the heat away. Worth a try.

Possible cut a chunk of PVC slice it to get it over the line and jb weld it to the under body then wrap it in foil tape?

Reactions: 1

andyl

· #143 · Dec 30, 2021

@RidingRoadsAndTrails - to my eye that's a clean-looking install - nice work! Sorry you've had such a tough time with this. Here's some ideas for consideration.

1) Is your fuel pump oriented the right way? I recall that the power-wires for my fuel pump were on the 'push side', not the 'pull side'.

2) Is your pump angled properly? The push side needs to be 15-30 degrees (or so) higher than the pull side.

3) What is the ratio of 'push line' vs 'pull line'? I think the pumps work best if the pull side is shorter than the push side.

4) Does your fuel line follow a steady positive angle, without high spots?

With my heater, you can watch small bubbles travel up the fuel line with each pump pulse, steadily without interruption and without gathering into a larger bubble at a high spot. Hopefully you see something similar.

FWIW I have similar spacing between the fuel line and exhaust line, have no heat insulation and have not experienced any heat-related issues.

PS I use lithium batteries.

May you find the solution quickly.

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brío

· #144 · Dec 30, 2021

andyl said:
PS I use lithium batteries.

Yeah. The "don't use Lithium" thing is nonsense. Volts are volts. The heater can't tell the difference.

Reactions: 2

RidingRoadsAndTrails

· #145 · Dec 30, 2021

andyl said:
@RidingRoadsAndTrails - to my eye that's a clean-looking install - nice work! Sorry you've had such a tough time with this. Here's some ideas for consideration.

1) Is your fuel pump oriented the right way? I recall that the power-wires for my fuel pump were on the 'push side', not the 'pull side'.

It is for sure. I believe they changed the orientation with the M2 version.

andyl said:
2) Is your pump angled properly? The push side needs to be 15-30 degrees (or so) higher than the pull side.

Yes, it is, about 20°

andyl said:
3) What is the ratio of 'push line' vs 'pull line'? I think the pumps work best if the pull side is shorter than the push side.

I hadn't heard about this before. I'd guess 3 - 4 feet on the pull side and just under 1 foot on the push side. I could possibly move the pump almost 1 foot upstream but the fuel tank prevents going any further. Most of the fuel line is along the top of the fuel tank.

andyl said:
4) Does your fuel line follow a steady positive angle, without high spots?

On the push side, yes. On the pull side, it is pretty level with a low spot where it comes under a van support.

andyl said:
With my heater, you can watch small bubbles travel up the fuel line with each pump pulse, steadily without interruption and without gathering into a larger bubble at a high spot. Hopefully you see something similar.

Yes, same.

andyl said:
FWIW I have similar spacing between the fuel line and exhaust line, have no heat insulation and have not experienced any heat-related issues.

PS I use lithium batteries.

May you find the solution quickly.

Thanks!

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andyl

· #146 · Dec 30, 2021

I hadn't heard about this before.

Maybe as an experiment, you could rig a temporary 'fuel tank' (just a cup of fuel will do), with a very short pull-line, maybe even a fuel source that delivers positive pressure (ie the fuel flows downhill to the metering pump). If that worked, it might lend evidence that your pull line is too long, or something isn't right with the pull from your gas tank.

If the pull vacuum is too high, I've read that problems can arise due to the low vapor pressure of diesel or (especially) gasoline. (also - pull vacuum and vaporization pressure is quite sensitive to elevation)

More ideas

and best of luck.

brío

· #147 · Dec 30, 2021 (Edited)

Here's an illustration from an older D5 installation manual. ~~Seems to suggest that the absolute length of the suction part of the line is more important than the ratio of "push" to "pull".~~
[EDIT: Actually, looking more carefully, it kind of supports that theory, but subject to absolute length restrictions as well.]

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Reactions: 1

gregoryx

· #148 · Dec 31, 2021

The two I thought were: pump angle (addressed) and pump on source end not far end. Pulling air is hard. Pushing fuel is easier. Any self-priming pump I've used has specifics on this (as suggested above); but I take it as, "the least pull for priming, the better."

To be fair, though... you're primed... so... just thoughts. 🤷‍♀️

Reactions: 1

Dave M

· #149 · Dec 31, 2021

idahoconv said:
So I installed a Espar B4L in my 2020 transit, under the passenger seat and have a problem with the heater starting when I am at elevation.

I live in Boise ID, at around 3k feet elevation, when down here in the valley my heater starts 99% of the time without issues. When I travel to my local ski area around 6800K feet the heater NEVER starts first try and generally will take around 30+ minutes of trying to get the thing started. Once it does starts at elevation, it will run absolutely fine stopping and starting. When I got back down in elevation it also will always start fine, and then back up to elevation I again have the problem.

Ive completely taken apart the entire gas line from the pickup in the tank all the way to the heater, ensuring rise, fittings, etc are perfect... still have the same problem of getting it started at elevation.

Heatso has been sorta OK to work with, but I feel like they dont really know either. They will be sending me a new ECU (when they get them in a couple weeks).

Has anyone had this problem, is there a trick to getting it started I could use until i get the root cause sorted?

Appreciate any pointers!

Not sure if this helps as we have not tried it yet at high elevation, but when we had our Espar heater installed we also had a "High Altitude Kit" installed as there were reported issues @ high altitude.

RidingRoadsAndTrails

· #150 · Dec 31, 2021 (Edited)

Dave M said:
Not sure if this helps as we have not tried it yet at high elevation, but when we had our Espar heater installed we also had a "High Altitude Kit" installed as there were reported issues @ high altitude.

The latest generation of the Espar heaters have the altitude adjustment built in, so there is no longer the need for an additional high altitude kit. My Espar D2 from 2016 did require the high altitude kit.

RidingRoadsAndTrails

· #151 · Dec 31, 2021

Update on my Espar saga: I got an unexpected call from Mike who is the lead Espar trainer for North America. Apparently, when I thought the support guys had essentially blown me off, they forwarded the email string to Mike. Mike said he is the last resort for the support folks. Mike clearly has far more hands-on experience and real-world knowledge with the heaters. He'll be doing training locally in a few weeks and even offered to meet with me if we don't have the issue resolved by then.

We went through some troubleshooting and he did identify an installation error that I made. He said this is actually the most common mistake installers make. The test is to unplug the heater from the harness and measure the resistance between pins 1 & 3 on the main harness connector. The reading must be 60Ω but 58-62 is tolerable. Mine was 118Ω. He identified that I was likely missing the 120Ω resistor on the EasyStartPro connector. Fortunately, I had saved it in my parts box and plugged it into the extra EasyStartPro connector and then the reading went to 60.2Ω. Fortunately, or unfortunately I wasn't experiencing any of the issues that usually come about when this happens, so the behavior of my heater did not change. Anyway, it is good to know that my install seems to be validated.

He made a point that the harness is super susceptible to EMF radiation from other wires and be sure to not zip tie the Espar harness to any other wires and to keep the harness as isolated as possible.

Next time I talk to him, I'll ask about the lithium battery issue.

Now to the problem at hand. He felt that the reason my heater is susceptible to the heat buildup under the heater is that there is too much vapor in the fuel line between the pump and the heater. Essentially, the pump is working too hard pulling fuel, causing excessive cavitation. I did the gas can test again, this time with a shorter fuel supply line and there did seem to be fewer bubbles coming from the pump. While under the van, I saw that I could reroute and shorten the supply side of the fuel line by about 10" and made that adjustment. That did not seem to change anything noticeably, but it is currently so cold out that the same levels of heat that I experienced before would not build up under the heater and trigger the shutdown. I'll test that again when it warms up a bit outside.

Mike reinforced what a number of you have already said, it is harder for the pump to pull than to push. The closer I can get the pump to the source, the better. While under the van this morning, I saw that I can move the fuel pump upstream by about 18" so that the pump will essentially be at the side of the fuel tank just next to the sending unit location. That will likely be my next move when the weather clears.

Happy New Year!

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Reactions: 5

gregoryx

· #152 · Dec 31, 2021

Good news on that update, @RidingRoadsAndTrails. Mostly great to have someone who seems to care and is determined to find a resolution. Maybe just moving the pump will make a big enough difference. 🤞

Reactions: 2

brío

· #153 · Dec 31, 2021

+1.
These units are very robust (despite their reputation), but only if they are set up just right. Unfortunately, the definition of "just right" is complex and sometimes counterintuitive. It is really helpful when folks like you take the time to coax out the details and document them.

Reactions: 1

simple

· #154 · Dec 31, 2021

They may be robust but they are sensitive AF

Mine is working well this winter. Never starts first try but now it doesn't struggle when coming off idle.

gregoryx

· #155 · Dec 31, 2021

No expert data on this, of course... but part of why we spent the big bucks on the B4 this time was the 5-years of flawless, maintenance-free performance with our D2 in the Sprinter. I suspect there's a lot of nothing-to-say success with these.

Janus9

· #156 · Dec 31, 2021

Seems like the diesel fueled versions have less problems.

brío

· #157 · Dec 31, 2021

Janus9 said:
Seems like the diesel fueled versions have less problems.

Likely to do with people choosing to use the incorrectly-sized Transit standpipe instead of the proper one. It may or may not be true that a proper setup is more critical with petrol. But my belief is that truly correct setups work just fine with either fuel.

Reactions: 1

Bazz99

· #158 · Jan 1, 2022

3

UPDATE: After a full year of use I guess I'll chime in again since Mt Rose had chairlifts on wind hold today and the resort is a sh!t show with all the Christmas crowds!! This winter I've used my B4L M2 (petrol) 12V Heater about 25 times already and the good news it's working better than last year. Every time I've turned it on this winter it's always started on the first try!! About 10 times at Mammoth and I think the elevation is close 9000 ft and the rest at Mt Rose which is at 8200 ft. I haven't done anything to the unit over the summer except add a new ducting hose that goes into the water tank area.

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If I could do my install over again I'd have the Easy Start Pro mounted right next to my sleeping area.
Unfortunately, I ran it with all my other wires to the opposite side of the van where all my other switches are.
I was reading the above post from the Espar Rep and I did zip tie my harness to all my other wires?

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Good luck on your troubleshooting and I hope you get it working!!

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Reactions: 3

skTransit

· #159 · Jan 1, 2022

We found the following link, which @maia posted, helped clarify the electrical install of the EasyStartPro controller. (independent of the heater being Diesel or Petrol/Benzin) Eberspacher S2 D2L Airtronic Diesel Heater- Wiring Harness Explained

Reactions: 3

Chainman1

· #160 · Jan 1, 2022

RidingRoadsAndTrails said:
Update on my Espar saga: I got an unexpected call from Mike who is the lead Espar trainer for North America. Apparently, when I thought the support guys had essentially blown me off, they forwarded the email string to Mike. Mike said he is the last resort for the support folks. Mike clearly has far more hands-on experience and real-world knowledge with the heaters. He'll be doing training locally in a few weeks and even offered to meet with me if we don't have the issue resolved by then.

We went through some troubleshooting and he did identify an installation error that I made. He said this is actually the most common mistake installers make. The test is to unplug the heater from the harness and measure the resistance between pins 1 & 3 on the main harness connector. The reading must be 60Ω but 58-62 is tolerable. Mine was 118Ω. He identified that I was likely missing the 120Ω resistor on the EasyStartPro connector. Fortunately, I had saved it in my parts box and plugged it into the extra EasyStartPro connector and then the reading went to 60.2Ω. Fortunately, or unfortunately I wasn't experiencing any of the issues that usually come about when this happens, so the behavior of my heater did not change. Anyway, it is good to know that my install seems to be validated.

He made a point that the harness is super susceptible to EMF radiation from other wires and be sure to not zip tie the Espar harness to any other wires and to keep the harness as isolated as possible.

Next time I talk to him, I'll ask about the lithium battery issue.

Now to the problem at hand. He felt that the reason my heater is susceptible to the heat buildup under the heater is that there is too much vapor in the fuel line between the pump and the heater. Essentially, the pump is working too hard pulling fuel, causing excessive cavitation. I did the gas can test again, this time with a shorter fuel supply line and there did seem to be fewer bubbles coming from the pump. While under the van, I saw that I could reroute and shorten the supply side of the fuel line by about 10" and made that adjustment. That did not seem to change anything noticeably, but it is currently so cold out that the same levels of heat that I experienced before would not build up under the heater and trigger the shutdown. I'll test that again when it warms up a bit outside.

Mike reinforced what a number of you have already said, it is harder for the pump to pull than to push. The closer I can get the pump to the source, the better. While under the van this morning, I saw that I can move the fuel pump upstream by about 18" so that the pump will essentially be at the side of the fuel tank just next to the sending unit location. That will likely be my next move when the weather clears.

Happy New Year!

Glad to hear you have a contact with Mike. He was very recepive to my issues, and sent me a new fuel pump and ECU with the current SW last year. Hopefully things are heading in the right direction!

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