[Longboard]

For several weeks now around Detroit diesel has been $3.89 while regular unleaded is exactly a dollar cheaper. 34.6 % is pretty significant!
Has the time come where Diesel engines are strictly for the power and torque where needed and no longer looked at as a operating cost saver?
Is there really anyone who could benefit from a Transit diesel in any way? At max towing isn't the Ecoboost still the cheaper option with no torque deficit?

 

[Chance]

......cut......

Has the time come where Diesel engines are strictly for the power and torque where needed and no longer looked at as a operating cost saver?

......cut.......

If it were mainly about having more "power and torque" couldn't there always be a larger gasoline engine? Ford has gasoline engines with and without turbos that have a lot more power and torque than the Transit diesel. In my opinion the diesel option comes down to fuel economy more than anything else.

 

[Longboard]

In my opinion the diesel option comes down to fuel economy more than anything else.

But if the current 34.6% higher cost of diesel fuel is something that's going to stick around for a while, is there an increase in fuel economy?

 

[bobojay]

Here in the Kansas City area today it was $3.85 diesel & $2.49 unleaded, with the gas trending down weekly the last couple months.
Part of the issue is seasonal with heating oil needed in parts of the country....also the refiners are selling all their excess diesel production overseas

 

[bbird]

Only two advantages for diesel better MPG and life expectancy . Not uncommon for a diesel to get 500,000 plus miles, my sprinter has 590,000 and averages about 23 MPG. if my parts and service was as cheap as a ford (transit) I would be getting another one

 

[BW5]

fuel economy, longevity & resale. Right now there is only a 60 cent difference between regular a diesel here. We pay higher gas prices in cny.

 

[Chance]

But if the current 34.6% higher cost of diesel fuel is something that's going to stick around for a while, is there an increase in fuel economy?

I was agreeing, although I should have stated total ownership costs and not just fuel cost. Like BWS stated, resale, longevity (which could include maintenance and or replacement) and any other cost should be included. Torque can't be the only issue as long as we could get it from a V8. Obviously a V8 would make the diesel fuel economy look even better.

By the way, not to correct you, but when you mentioned "power and torque" as diesel attributes, let's not forget the diesel actually has less power. It has more torque than standard V6 but less power. I think it's important to avoid commingling these two terms as if they are one and the same. Technically they are very different.

A good way to remember is that "power" is often measured in horsePOWER in US. Torque has benefit but it's not the same as power. And the Transit's diesel engine has the least power at typical driving elevations.

 

[orton]

The miles/gallon difference between a diesel engine and a gas engine is only part of the least cost of ownership calculation. Many folks only look at that difference and proudly proclaim how great the diesel engine is.

What they seem to forget is the additional costs of owning a diesel engine compared to a gas engine:

1. Higher purchase cost. ($6,000 for Transit)
2. Cost and trouble of adding a gallon of DEF fluid every 2000 miles.
3. Higher cost of special engine oil and more quarts/change.
4. Significantly more emission hardware and software to make the diesel engine meet EPA regulations. All of which can and will require maintenance costs.
5. Cost of the required fuel filter changes.

The argument about double the diesel engine life compared to gas engine is moot because a replacement gas engine costs about half as much as a replacement diesel engine. That seems to offset any advantage.

The diesel advantage of no spark plugs is offset by the need for glow plugs. Spark plugs and glow plugs both last about 100,000 miles with the cost of replacement of glow plugs being higher.

Very difficult to justify a diesel engine with the current fuel prices. If it is very important to proclaim the great diesel mpg number to your friends, then the diesel may have value. Or maybe you just like a diesel.

The calculation changes dramatically with a change in the differential cost of fuel. When I bought my 08 Sprinter diesel was 30 cents/gallon less than gas. Now with diesel 60 cents/gallon more than gas I bought a gas Transit. I also will be very happy to eliminate all extra the diesel emission stuff.

 

[rbisch]

Do not know who or what is setting the prices for fuel but it does not seem to be supply and demand.
Spot Prices for Crude Oil and Petroleum Products

 

[carnut]

Do not know who or what is setting the prices for fuel but it does not seem to be supply and demand...

Gas has dropped significantly before and it always comes roaring back. Those charts show diesel prices much less volatile. I wouldn't count on this gasoline dip lasting long. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[bbird]

The miles/gallon difference between a diesel engine and a gas engine is only part of the least cost of ownership calculation. Many folks only look at that difference and proudly proclaim how great the diesel engine is.

What they seem to forget is the additional costs of owning a diesel engine compared to a gas engine:

1. Higher purchase cost. ($6,000 for Transit)
2. Cost and trouble of adding a gallon of DEF fluid every 2000 miles.
3. Higher cost of special engine oil and more quarts/change.
4. Significantly more emission hardware and software to make the diesel engine meet EPA regulations. All of which can and will require maintenance costs.
5. Cost of the required fuel filter changes.

The argument about double the diesel engine life compared to gas engine is moot because a replacement gas engine costs about half as much as a replacement diesel engine. That seems to offset any advantage.

The diesel advantage of no spark plugs is offset by the need for glow plugs. Spark plugs and glow plugs both last about 100,000 miles with the cost of replacement of glow plugs being higher.

Very difficult to justify a diesel engine with the current fuel prices. If it is very important to proclaim the great diesel mpg number to your friends, then the diesel may have value. Or maybe you just like a diesel.

The calculation changes dramatically with a change in the differential cost of fuel. When I bought my 08 Sprinter diesel was 30 cents/gallon less than gas. Now with diesel 60 cents/gallon more than gas I bought a gas Transit. I also will be very happy to eliminate all extra the diesel emission stuff.

Orton, good points I maybe the candidate for a diesel, I put over 60,000 miles a year on. I did the numbers, If I can get 7 MPG over a gaser, that comes up with a savings of About $3,500 annually, which would give the diesel the edge, I would keep it for about 5 years. Thus the savings is about $17,500. Also the diesel does come with a 100,000 mile P.T. Warranty and cruise control, also higher resale value. My 04 Sprinter has 590,000 miles on it, guy offered me $3,500 cash, thinking about it. Gasser about $500.00

 

[Chance]

Orton, good points I maybe the candidate for a diesel, I put over 60,000 miles a year on. I did the numbers, If I can get 7 MPG over a gaser, that comes up with a savings of About $3,500 annually, which would give the diesel the edge, I would keep it for about 5 years. Thus the savings is about $17,500. Also the diesel does come with a 100,000 mile P.T. Warranty and cruise control, also higher resale value. My 04 Sprinter has 590,000 miles on it, guy offered me $3,500 cash, thinking about it. Gasser about $500.00

Can you share what MPG estimates you used to get a 7 MPG difference?

Just curious since there is a lot more savings between 14 and 21 than between 100 and 107 MPG.

By the way, for guys who drive 60,000 miles over 10 years (closer to my present case) diesel cost-savings just don't work out well. Your high usage works in your favor. Higher tow rating would be my only significant justification.

 

[mogulman]

I was a huge diesel fan in the 80's. I had a Isuzu I-Mark Diesel car. The diesel option was $600. Diesel was about 20% less than gas. I car got 50 mpg on highway and upper 30's in city. This was double the gas engine. The engine was simple. The only maintenance was oil changes every 3000 miles and timing belt every 60,000. There was no emission testing and no emission junk on engine. It could pull a small camper. What has changed ?

1. Diesel option is expensive. This can range from $4000 to $7000 depending on vehicle.
2. Diesel engines are complex. Expensive to repair.
3. Diesel fuel is typically about 15-20% more expensive. Recent gas price reductions can make it more.
4. Gas engines have gotten much better so diesel highway MPGs are typically about 15-20% better. City MPGs are less. Diesel has 14% more energy per gallon.

You need to look are your specific case but I don't see diesel being an advantage for most people. Maybe if you are running a delivery service that mostly does highway driving.

 

[bbird]

Can you share what MPG estimates you used to get a 7 MPG difference?

Just curious since there is a lot more savings between 14 and 21 than between 100 and 107 MPG.

By the way, for guys who drive 60,000 miles over 10 years (closer to my present case) diesel cost-savings just don't work out well. Your high usage works in your favor. Higher tow rating would be my only significant justification.

OK, I'll do the math (just this once):laugh:

Annually miles 65,000

Gas 3.65 Per Gallon MPG @ 18
Diesel 3.75 Per Gallon MPG @ 25

Savings #3 ,431.00 annually $17,153 5 years

 

[orton]

OK, I'll do the math (just this once):laugh:

Annually miles 65,000

Gas 3.65 Per Gallon MPG @ 18
Diesel 3.75 Per Gallon MPG @ 25

Savings #3 ,431.00 annually $17,153 5 years

Diesel in my area is 60 cents/gallon more than gas.
What about DEF cost?
What about diesel fuel filter labor & material costs?
What about $6,000 additional purchase cost? At 5% that is $300/year.
What about higher oil change cost?

Doubt you will average 25 mpg with diesel. Max. on my empty Sprinter V6 was 20.75 mpg. Also doubt that gas engine will average 18 mpg. Expect it to be less. Not 7 mpg difference. More like 5 mpg difference.

Even with including the above costs your 65,000/year usage may make you one of the few that can benefit from a diesel. Each person should do the math to see if diesel is less expensive or more expensive for their specific application.

Even at 65,000/year the cost savings will be significantly less than $3431.00/year. You also may incur additional costs due to the extra hardware and software for the more complicated emission controls.

Again cost calculations need to include all costs not just the fuel usage costs.

 

[Chance]

OK, I'll do the math (just this once):laugh:

Annually miles 65,000

Gas 3.65 Per Gallon MPG @ 18
Diesel 3.75 Per Gallon MPG @ 25

Savings #3 ,431.00 annually $17,153 5 years

Didn't ask for your math. Just your MPG assumptions.

18 for gas

25 for diesel.

Got it. And thanks for replying.

 

[hammerdown]

Doesn't the Ecoboost like top tier gas at the least, and premium ideally to obtain the rated power figures? I know the 6.0 ls in my G8 GT runs on 87, but with 91+ the mileage increase essentially covers the cost difference in fuel, and the motor runs stronger.

I think that the argument for diesel is weaker than it was say 10 years ago, but depending on what you use the van for, and miles driven, there is still a good advantage. Canada, for instance, has diesel at roughly the same price as regular, and sometimes cheaper. Furthermore, we know that ecoboost will drink fuel if you use it's power. What's the point of getting the more powerful motor, if you're always lightfooting it in the interest of getting a couple more mpg??

 

[SuprMover]

Diesels used to be a clear winner in terms of reliability and cost of ownership over time. In the case of the Transit, I don't see the 3.2L Diesel as such a bargain.

 

[hammerdown]

Real mileage numbers for the diesel will make a better case for it. There are lots of techy type folks will take the diesel just to quote mpg figures at party's.