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Do you think my move to 48v was a smart idea?

  • Yea, 48v is the future

    Votes: 5 71.4%
  • No, should have stuck with 12v, more universal

    Votes: 2 28.6%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A detailed component by component breakdown of my electrical system by Sam Reiser, the owner of Just Roaming Design in Washougal, Washington. Much of the 48v system designed by Just Roaming Design utilized VICTRON components, but other advanced controllers and alternators integrate seamlessly to provide me the power I need to run a full-service podcasting and video production studio from the van!


Hope you find this useful. I thought this forum would be the perfect place to share it.
 

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I really wanted to use a 24V system, but was stymied a bit by my biggest load, the RTX 2000 AC only being available as a 12V model, and down-converting from 24V to 12V isn't very efficient. The same issue would be there for a 48V system.

A 12V system can deliver 4800 watts using 4/0 cable or less, so it's a little cumbersome, but not that bad to have thicker cables as long as your peak usage is below that.

One caution with a 48V system would be to make sure that your solar array produces more than 48V. Mine is rated at 44V, so it's fine for a 12 or 24V system, but would have to be redone for a 48V system.
 

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One caution with a 48V system would be to make sure that your solar array produces more than 48V. Mine is rated at 44V, so it's fine for a 12 or 24V system, but would have to be redone for a 48V system.
And another caution that comes with this one is that over 48 volts DC can be dangerous.
 

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I once got zapped with twenty 12 volt deep cycle SLA batteries wired in series, 240 volts dc. Surprisingly it did not hurt.
Computer server farm UPS power module protected by a 250 amp dc circuit breaker, There were a total of 60 batteries in one power module. The UPS had two power modules with the second one for back up.
 

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down-converting from 24V to 12V isn't very efficient. The same issue would be there for a 48V system.
I was worried about this at first but after more calculations and now plenty of real world tests, it's clear that converting from 48V to 13.8V for house DC loads is a non-issue because the real power draw is the a/c. Having a 20.5kWh 48V LFP battery bank, a 48V inverter, and a 240V a/c saves so much that it makes the DC load conversion loss look like a rounding error.

Good point about the solar array. I'm about to install mine and plan for a ballpark 135 Voc. That kind of DC voltage obviously has risks associated with it, but it's also very efficient. For most users targeting 60-80V would be safer.

The real issue with 48V rotating power is the risk of a load dump. Victron batteries do have a way to signal an impending dump to the WS,500, but that's not the only way you can suddenly disconnect an alternator, as plenty of people have learned the hard way, with tears and significant loss of money.

I recently had a forum user message me about a breaker in his alternator path which tripped, costing him a few grand to replace the inverter. Granted the breaker was undersized and shouldn't have been there at all in my opinion, but it goes to show 48V alternators with no available Sterling OVPD device are risky business.

I'm still debating whether I'll even need the 48V alternator with a 1110W solar array and the most efficient a/c system I could possibly source. 24V has none of those issues, and is probably better for 95% of users, even if it's a tad less efficient when inverting for a/c or some other very high power device (ambulances, crane operators, etc).

Cabling doesn't really save you much by going 48V because breakers, fuses, switches, and other components rated for 60V+ (ballpark max charging voltage) are much more expensive and more difficult to source. I also tend to oversize my cables, so I'm using 2/0 for 48V even though I could probably have gone 1/0. The cost difference between 4/0 and 1/0 is significant, but after you add up all those pricey 60V+ breakers, switches, fuses, and other gear, I doubt there's any savings, and possibly even a loss.

That Victron Smart Battery Protect is a POS. I returned two after discovering (even InvertersRUS blew 2 proving this to themselves) that it can't even work with a basic DC converter. It's well publicized about not using it with inverters, but nothing about it's inability to function even with a simple DC converter. Apparently even the basic smoothing caps in a DC converter will brick it. It really only helps to protect against power draw from purely resistive 48V+ loads, of which there are very few.

Plus, most good inverters let you program a low voltage cutoff, and they are by far the largest draw, so the SBP is redundant in that regard, and at least in my case the largest house DC loads (heat pads, heat trace) are all controlled by timers and temp relays, so there's just not enough continuous drain to worry about. My battery bank is also 20.5kWh so it would take a very long time for the remaining small DC loads to drain it down to the BMV's alarm voltage, and then another long period of time with the alarm going off non-stop before it would finally reach the battery's BMS cutoff voltage, at which point the BMS will do its job. There's next to no chance the battery will disconnect from a low-voltage cutoff while the alternator is charging, so really what use is the SBP? I ditched my broken units, got a refund from InvertersRUS, and found myself again wondering what all the hype is about Victron.

Some of their products are worthwhile, like the BMV-712, and maybe the overpriced Cerbo GX, which I'm really only using to push BMV-712 data to the cloud. But as far as I can tell the rest is way overpriced (batteries about 200-300% above standard kWh LFP prices), full of caveats like "this only works when this doesn't," plenty of users complaining about inverter noise, devices like the SBP that are largely useless, and a terrible customer service process that often ends up going in circles with a distributor who knows less than you.

Why Victron can't just support its own products like every other company is beyond me. It sounds like a cheap-skate way of saving a few bucks. "I know, we'll make the distributors do tech support so we don't have to!" Gee thanks. They had a glaring error on a product data sheet, and it took me dozens of emails, including some to senior management just to get them to even look into it, at which point they finally apologized and corrected the error.

I know they're popular with many users, so I'll probably take slack for saying all of that, but I kept expecting good things and kept discovering it was a bit like buying an Apple product. You pay ten times as much for the same features that were offered a year ago on a Samsung or Google product, plus you keep finding proprietary hidden costs (sensors, cables, etc), and little annoying issues like the pricey Cerbo being unable to just push the exact wattage the BMV-712 is reporting to the cloud. The BMV shows a consistent -8W (small parasitic loads), which tells me everything is normal when the RV isn't being used, but the portal (yes, its in real-time mode) flips between -5W or -10W, presumably unable to display 1W granularity. At first it made me think some small device was malfunctioning, but nope, all is well, so now I just accept it as yet another annoying bug. Maybe some Victron aficionados know how to fix it, but I sure couldn't find any easy answer.

Cheers.
 

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I once got zapped with twenty 12 volt deep cycle SLA batteries wired in series, 240 volts dc. Surprisingly it did not hurt.
Computer server farm UPS power module protected by a 250 amp dc circuit breaker, There were a total of 60 batteries in one power module. The UPS had two power modules with the second one for back up.
That's because 50-60Hz AC induces muscular contractions, ventricular fibrillation and other severe damage at a much smaller magnitude than DC. But DC can still kill you. Where and how you contact a DC source, and all manner of other factors contribute to lethality. One firm contact on each sweaty hand is the worst (across the heart); two light contacts on a single dry appendage is the least.

The single largest risk of high voltage DC is its ability to sustain an arc, and thereby cause a fire. I'm a stickler about fusing, but go figure the one time I was rushing and didn't fuse a 52.5V test circuit, my fluke probe just barely touched two thin little resistor wires. The pop and arc was enough to burn up the bread board at that location and make me recoil in surprise. 12V can do that too, but it's much worse at 48V.

Cheers.
 

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Sorry to be dense, @Van Gogh - which part is the "Victron SMB is a POS"? The external BMS? Trying to get my list together of high quality parts for #FutureVan and would like to avoid "POS" footguns.
 

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The future does seem to be going towards 48V, so that alone is enough for me. There are more 48V inverter/charger options, and in time we should see more 48V air conditioners as well; not that I think DC air conditioners are necessary at their higher cost when inverters exceed 90% efficiency. I would like to see more 48V battery options, though they are also becoming a bit more common. By time I get a new van, I hope decision to go 48V is even easier.

P.S. — Would like to see actual “48V” batteries in lieu of 51.2 (4X12.8) as we transition from 12 to 48 Volts.
 

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That Victron SMB is a POS. I returned two after discovering (even InvertersRUS blew 2 proving this to themselves) that it can't even work with a basic DC converter. It's well publicized about not using it with inverters, but nothing about it's inability to function even with a simple DC converter.
Which part is the SMB? I know their Battery Protect can't handle the inrush from inverter capacitors, but now I'm wracking my brain to think what SMB stands for.

Why Victron can't just support its own products like every other company is beyond me. It sounds like a cheap-skate way of saving a few bucks. "I know, we'll make the distributors do tech support so we don't have to!" Gee thanks.
A simple "like" for this could not possibly be strong enough. WHYYYYYY, Victron? And how many times do you go to their "community" help forum and do a search and you are like "Yes! Three separate threads have asked my question, I'm in luck!" only then when you click they are questions that never got answered. Heaven help you if your dealer doesn't know more than you can find out in the manual.

They have so many slick things. Blue is nice. The app is great. But.... grrrr.

***
On the 12v vs. higher topic. I have considered going 24 volt. It's common on boats so there are quite a few things that easily work on 24 volts that I already have (fans, boat fridges, etc.). Yet still relatively easy to buy switches/breakers/ etc. that still work at that voltage, and not too hard to get solar above that. I was kind of stuck on "but why have the inefficiency of stepping down to 12 volt" because there are always going to be things that are still meant to run on 12 volt. But OTOH now I'm reading about where people have to put in a voltage converter for things like Maxx Fans because LFP voltage is a bit higher and they can't handle that -- so the converter would be a way to provide consistent voltage.

Although, on the Maxx Fan topic: How did they ever handle the 14.4 volts of a lead acid bank in the absorption stage? (I've never had a Maxx Fan and so far over a period of years have never had anything break (that I have noticed) due to the 14.4 volts of absorb.)
 

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Which part is the SMB? I know their Battery Protect can't handle the inrush from inverter capacitors, but now I'm wracking my brain to think what SMB stands for.



A simple "like" for this could not possibly be strong enough. WHYYYYYY, Victron? And how many times do you go to their "community" help forum and do a search and you are like "Yes! Three separate threads have asked my question, I'm in luck!" only then when you click they are questions that never got answered. Heaven help you if your dealer doesn't know more than you can find out in the manual.

They have so many slick things. Blue is nice. The app is great. But.... grrrr.

***
On the 12v vs. higher topic. I have considered going 24 volt. It's common on boats so there are quite a few things that easily work on 24 volts that I already have (fans, boat fridges, etc.). Yet still relatively easy to buy switches/breakers/ etc. that still work at that voltage, and not too hard to get solar above that. I was kind of stuck on "but why have the inefficiency of stepping down to 12 volt" because there are always going to be things that are still meant to run on 12 volt. But OTOH now I'm reading about where people have to put in a voltage converter for things like Maxx Fans because LFP voltage is a bit higher and they can't handle that -- so the converter would be a way to provide consistent voltage.

Although, on the Maxx Fan topic: How did they ever handle the 14.4 volts of a lead acid bank in the absorption stage? (I've never had a Maxx Fan and so far over a period of years have never had anything break (that I have noticed) due to the 14.4 volts of absorb.)
Good catch. It was just a typo. Meant SBP. It's been a year since I returned mine.

Cheers.
 

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I have a number of 48 volt systems built into vans and one in a tiny house. (built on a 26 ft box truck)

The TW project was Victron because that is what the couple had already purchased in 12 volt, and I convinced them to trade it in for 48 volt stuff.

This is a photo of the Tiny house at one stage of the project:


All of the other projects used domestically built components for 90+% of the build.

Too many issues with infant mortality of Victron inverters for me to stick with them as a standard.

The biggest challenge is that it is one thing to say "this component is 48 volt compatible" and a completely different thing to find components that are "mobile rated + 48 volt compatible".
 

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But OTOH now I'm reading about where people have to put in a voltage converter for things like Maxx Fans because LFP voltage is a bit higher and they can't handle that -- so the converter would be a way to provide consistent voltage.

Although, on the Maxx Fan topic: How did they ever handle the 14.4 volts of a lead acid bank in the absorption stage? (I've never had a Maxx Fan and so far over a period of years have never had anything break (that I have noticed) due to the 14.4 volts of absorb.)
The high voltage aspect appears to mostly be an issue on the models that can turn on automatically with a thermostat. That is as close as I can come to what is happening.

You are right though - a good quality DC- DC converter is a great way to power items such as 12 volt fuel heaters, 12 volt refrigerators and similar - as the voltage can be quite stable.
 

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The future does seem to be going towards 48V, so that alone is enough for me. There are more 48V inverter/charger options, and in time we should see more 48V air conditioners as well; not that I think DC air conditioners are necessary at their higher cost when inverters exceed 90% efficiency. I would like to see more 48V battery options, though they are also becoming a bit more common. By time I get a new van, I hope decision to go 48V is even easier.

P.S. — Would like to see actual “48V” batteries in lieu of 51.2 (4X12.8) as we transition from 12 to 48 Volts.
Just wire 4 typical 12 volt style / LiFe batteries in series.
 

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... as far as I can tell the rest is way overpriced (batteries about 200-300% above standard kWh LFP prices)
When I bought my Victron batteries they were within 10% $/kwH compared with the BattleBorn batteries. I know prices move around, but I was happy getting the Victron batteries. They are quite a bit smaller than the BattleBorn batteries for the same kwH capacity, which was important to me. Also, there is a BMS for the Victron batteries that integrates really well with the Multiplus and their other gear if you are using it.
 

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When I bought my Victron batteries they were within 10% $/kwH compared with the BattleBorn batteries. I know prices move around, but I was happy getting the Victron batteries. They are quite a bit smaller than the BattleBorn batteries for the same kwH capacity, which was important to me. Also, there is a BMS for the Victron batteries that integrates really well with the Multiplus and their other gear if you are using it.
Battleborn is similarly overpriced, mostly marketing and high profit margins, BMS included.

Ecosystem integration is indeed nice, but imo having 200-300% more AH for the same price is nicer.

Cheers.
 

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The high voltage aspect appears to mostly be an issue on the models that can turn on automatically with a thermostat.
What I still can't figure out is how these same fans withstood the high voltage that I would think say and AGM house bank would have during the absorb stage. (But it's only mentioned with the "higher voltage" of LFP from what I have seen?). What I mean is that the absorption stage on my AGM bank is set for 14.4 volts, and it can be there for 2-3 hours. If my battery bank is below 77º that can be even higher than 14.4 volts as the temp compensation on my solar controller kicks in and raises the voltage.

But in the (granted, relatively small sample size) of the people having an issue and then contacting Maxx Fan, the problem was supposedly the higher voltage of an LFP bank (which granted, will tend to sit higher much of the time than an lead acid bank). In fact some of them were people who had been running the fan no problem on their AGM bank, then switched to LFP and the issue started. Still can't figure out why it wouldn't have been a problem in the absorption stage of an AGM bank though (I must be missing something).
 

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What I still can't figure out is how these same fans withstood the high voltage that I would think say and AGM house bank would have during the absorb stage. (But it's only mentioned with the "higher voltage" of LFP from what I have seen?). What I mean is that the absorption stage on my AGM bank is set for 14.4 volts, and it can be there for 2-3 hours. If my battery bank is below 77º that can be even higher than 14.4 volts as the temp compensation on my solar controller kicks in and raises the voltage.

But in the (granted, relatively small sample size) of the people having an issue and then contacting Maxx Fan, the problem was supposedly the higher voltage of an LFP bank (which granted, will tend to sit higher much of the time than an lead acid bank). In fact some of them were people who had been running the fan no problem on their AGM bank, then switched to LFP and the issue started. Still can't figure out why it wouldn't have been a problem in the absorption stage of an AGM bank though (I must be missing something).
That is a good question - I didn't realize that people were having failures from going AGM to LiFe.

The voltage should have been fine. Completely guessing - maybe they were not running the temperature compensation?

Maybe an arc or surge of some kind during the installation of the new batteries?

All of the DC converters that I use are set for 13.2 - 13.3 and so far it has been fine.
 

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Just wire 4 typical 12 volt style / LiFe batteries in series.
It seems to me that a single larger 48V battery would have some advantages, particularly in packaging and overall simplicity. A 100 Ah X 48V battery can be as compact as 8D size, and still not be too heavy.

If for some reason it was necessary to go with 4 smaller batteries, I still think 48V batteries in parallel would be advantageous over 4 of them in series. If one failed you’d still be in business, and also adding a “little” extra capacity, if wanted, would allow a 5th or 6th battery to be added in parallel.

Longer-term, once we jump to 48V as standard, I hope 12V batteries are left behind pretty much like 6V were for automotive use. Unfortunately, transitions like this often take a long time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I was worried about this at first but after more calculations and now plenty of real world tests, it's clear that converting from 48V to 13.8V for house DC loads is a non-issue because the real power draw is the a/c. Having a 20.5kWh 48V LFP battery bank, a 48V inverter, and a 240V a/c saves so much that it makes the DC load conversion loss look like a rounding error.

Good point about the solar array. I'm about to install mine and plan for a ballpark 135 Voc. That kind of DC voltage obviously has risks associated with it, but it's also very efficient. For most users targeting 60-80V would be safer.

The real issue with 48V rotating power is the risk of a load dump. Victron batteries do have a way to signal an impending dump to the WS,500, but that's not the only way you can suddenly disconnect an alternator, as plenty of people have learned the hard way, with tears and significant loss of money.

I recently had a forum user message me about a breaker in his alternator path which tripped, costing him a few grand to replace the inverter. Granted the breaker was undersized and shouldn't have been there at all in my opinion, but it goes to show 48V alternators with no available Sterling OVPD device are risky business.

I'm still debating whether I'll even need the 48V alternator with a 1110W solar array and the most efficient a/c system I could possibly source. 24V has none of those issues, and is probably better for 95% of users, even if it's a tad less efficient when inverting for a/c or some other very high power device (ambulances, crane operators, etc).

Cabling doesn't really save you much by going 48V because breakers, fuses, switches, and other components rated for 60V+ (ballpark max charging voltage) are much more expensive and more difficult to source. I also tend to oversize my cables, so I'm using 2/0 for 48V even though I could probably have gone 1/0. The cost difference between 4/0 and 1/0 is significant, but after you add up all those pricey 60V+ breakers, switches, fuses, and other gear, I doubt there's any savings, and possibly even a loss.

That Victron Smart Battery Protect is a POS. I returned two after discovering (even InvertersRUS blew 2 proving this to themselves) that it can't even work with a basic DC converter. It's well publicized about not using it with inverters, but nothing about it's inability to function even with a simple DC converter. Apparently even the basic smoothing caps in a DC converter will brick it. It really only helps to protect against power draw from purely resistive 48V+ loads, of which there are very few.

Plus, most good inverters let you program a low voltage cutoff, and they are by far the largest draw, so the SMB is redundant in that regard, and at least in my case the largest house DC loads (heat pads, heat trace) are all controlled by timers and temp relays, so there's just not enough continuous drain to worry about. My battery bank is also 20.5kWh so it would take a very long time for the remaining small DC loads to drain it down to the BMV's alarm voltage, and then another long period of time with the alarm going off non-stop before it would finally reach the battery's BMS cutoff voltage, at which point the BMS will do its job. There's next to no chance the battery will disconnect from a low-voltage cutoff while the alternator is charging, so really what use is the SMB? I ditched my broken units, got a refund from InvertersRUS, and found myself again wondering what all the hype is about Victron.

Some of their products are worthwhile, like the BMV-712, and maybe the overpriced Cerbo GX, which I'm really only using to push BMV-712 data to the cloud. But as far as I can tell the rest is way overpriced (batteries about 200-300% above standard kWh LFP prices), full of caveats like "this only works when this doesn't," plenty of users complaining about inverter noise, devices like the SMB that are largely useless, and a terrible customer service process that often ends up going in circles with a distributor who knows less than you.

Why Victron can't just support its own products like every other company is beyond me. It sounds like a cheap-skate way of saving a few bucks. "I know, we'll make the distributors do tech support so we don't have to!" Gee thanks. They had a glaring error on a product data sheet, and it took me dozens of emails, including some to senior management just to get them to even look into it, at which point they finally apologized and corrected the error.

I know they're popular with many users, so I'll probably take slack for saying all of that, but I kept expecting good things and kept discovering it was a bit like buying an Apple product. You pay ten times as much for the same features that were offered a year ago on a Samsung or Google product, plus you keep finding proprietary hidden costs (sensors, cables, etc), and little annoying issues like the pricey Cerbo being unable to just push the exact wattage the BMV-712 is reporting to the cloud. The BMV shows a consistent -8W (small parasitic loads), which tells me everything is normal when the RV isn't being used, but the portal (yes, its in real-time mode) flips between -5W or -10W, presumably unable to display 1W granularity. At first it made me think some small device was malfunctioning, but nope, all is well, so now I just accept it as yet another annoying bug. Maybe some Victron aficionados know how to fix it, but I sure couldn't find any easy answer.

Cheers.
wow.. that is quite an experienced reply... thanks for taking the time. I think the LTE GX will allow them to monitor my system as sort of a guinea pick... so maybe my Smart Battery Protect will trip and they can get some useful data to prevent it in the future.
 
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