[EddieZ]

I'm looking at getting a new Transit. Have not yet had the dealer search to see what's sitting in stock for possible dealer swap.

I plan to do a light camper van conversion, which, of course, means insulation and paneling. I see the Load Area Protection Package listed alone, 96D, or as part of the Interior Upgrade Package 96C. I wonder if either package is worth whatever the Load Area Protection portion would cost. Would the panels serve well, with insulation behind them?

I know I CAN cut my own panels of thin wood, or that corrugated poly material, etc. But, having pre-fit, perfectly fit, fairly attractive paneling to work with could be a nice head-start.

Also, I'm curious about the 220 amp alternator. I do plan on having coach batteries. I have not yet decided whether to charge them from solar, or from the alternator. And, if from alternator, via an isolator (and whatever else; I'm not fully versed), or -- did I read this right in other threads on this forum... by bridging from the vehicle system, while not actually being integrated into the vehicle system.

For my use profile (mainly running vent fan and small electronics and LED lights semi-regularly), solar may be overkill, not to mention stuff on the roof. Wouldn't the bigger alternator be a good option, then?

Thanks!

 

[EddieZ]

I guess I should also be asking how easily those load area panels are to remove, for the purpose of insulating, adding wiring etc...

 

[EddieZ]

OH, think I remember the non-isolator method of charging coach batteries, that I had seen: run inverter off the vehicle system, and use that to power a charger with a proper charging profile, for the coach batteries, right?

So, high output alternator would be useful? And, would high output alternator cause poorer gas mileage?

 

[vnehess]

Welcome to the community!

All good questions, some answers from my personal experience.

I did not end up with the load area protection, but cut the panels from 5mm ply, works well , but does not look as professional as the factory ones. This effort was lots of work since i decided to secure with plus-nuts ( which appears to be overkill). So, doing it again I would get the factory panels if possible.

Insolation was easy to install by hand, stuffing thinsulate in the cavities required very little effort. The factory panels come off by popping each fastener with a small flathead driver, takes a few seconds each.

I have the 220 alternator, don't think it is a MPG problem since I got 18.6 on my last tank of gas, flat roads, freeway speeds, running with no load.

The factory inverter can be used to charge house batteries, but the rating on this is only 150Watts, so... consider an aftermarket inverter and charger if you go this way.

I went with solar, 200 Watts to run into 200amps house batteries to support fan, fridge, lights and computer charging.

summary:
yes on the L-A-Panels
yes on the HD alternator ( and dual AGM batteries for the truck)

 

[jethaden]

The Ford panels are plastic card board material. Depends on what you think of such stuff. I would cover them with something else to make them attractive. Fasteners are push plugs [note: bad description], which are easy to remove and reinstall. I did not get the Ford panels, but the slider is the same material, I believe, on which I base my opinion.

If you want the power point user defined switches, you have to get the 220 amp alternator. I would see no negatives to the larger alternator besides cost. I got it and do not regret choice, but have no good reason so far. Bigger alternator requires or begets dual batteries, I believe. There are several choices on how you charge from engine alternator/main battery to house batteries. One choice, proposed by Orton, is inverter on engine battery feeding 120V to charger on house battery, generally limited to 50+ amps. Alternate method is to tie solenoid between engine and house batteries so lots of current can go to house batteries if required--should only be done if engine and house batteries are of same type (and some would say of same size). Requires large wires between batteries since could be lots of current. Another alternate is DC to DC charge controller from engine battery to house batteries, generally limited to 40 amp area. I have not found multiple good examples of last alternative. All above comments subject to broad generalizations and interpretations.

Neutral but not negative on Ford panels.
Yes on HD alternator, dual AGM, and potentially user defined power point switches.
Also yes on LED cargo lights and slider step (though many think it is too thin).

 

[Deadwood]

I just ordered van so I haven't even seen all the options I have on order. I did get the uplifter switches which does upgrade the alternator and batteries. I also went with the premium package which ends up giving me the interior panels. I plan to camp and Mtn bike for a while before I start my build so I'm hoping the interior panels will make it a little nicer inside until I start. Also thinking I can either cover them or use them as a template later on.

 

[orton]

Yes on HD alternator, 4 user defined switches, dual alternator and trailer tow package.

The limit on charging with a vehicle powered inverter is the size of the inverter. My 600 watt inverter in the sold Sprinter could only provide 30 amps of charging due to overheating. Transit will have a 1000 watt inverter properly installed outside any cabinet. Other uses for the inverter are water heating, air heating and running the refrigerator on 120 volt AC while driving to conserve house battery capacity.
I am a strong believer in solar because it can eliminate any user actions. Does depend on weather conditions where you live and travel. Can eliminate all owner involvement with right conditions. I went a full year with only solar charging with a 205 watt panel. Transit will have the same physical size panel rated at 300 watts.

 

[Airedrifter]

I'm an odd man out on the house battery system. I put together a totally integrated system comprised of Ctek equipment. It is an install and forget about it system. So far it has worked beautifully.

http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/camper-vans-conversions/6433-electrical-guts-house-system.html

 

[EddieZ]

Thanks, all. I've read the comments several times -- still working electrical comprehension.

I test-drove a 148" MR 250 with Ecoboost, today. Very nice ride! Nuthin' to complain about, there. 'Course, I had recently driven a 20-year-old, 21-foot Chevy van RV, which is a nasty beast, by comparison.

Ugh, it looks like I'll have to special order, to get 2-way manual lumbar seats 21C, either alone, or with the interior upgrade package 96C, with the 3.5L engine. I may as well go with the interior package, as I like the sliding door panel's corrugated plastic, as for the load area protection package.

BUT, what are real wait times running, now, for special orders? I had noted long waits indicated, back in mid-2014.

BTW, that corrugated plastic uses a honeycomb pattern, rather than linear channels that cardboard has. That should eliminate worries I had seen expressed on another thread, about potential moisture and mold building up in the corrugations.

On the electrical, I took note of KeithW's post about standard battery and alternator:

"I’m thinking the Transit “base” 150 amp alternator and single starter battery will be able to provide as much as the CTEK can process given the normal loads from the Transit, enabling the alternator to recharge a drawn down house battery with two or three hours of driving. (I say this having been unable to find a figure for the normal operating amp requirements of the transit. The Ford chat line was no help. But the dealer service manager said there should be ample reserve for what I described.)

The service manager also said that the dual battery set up is just the equivalent of a larger starter battery and would be of no value to me if I intend to power all the additions from the separate house battery."

This sort of matches my not-electrically-well-versed thinking:

1) Isn't an alternator doing very little work most of the time, such that the 150 amp std. alternator would have plenty of duty time and capacity to charge house batteries?

2) The twin starter batteries do seem overkill, IF they are primarily intended to be used by owners that DO NOT want to install a house battery system.

...leading me to wonder, how well could a person do, using that upgraded system,and not having house batteries. Let me focus on just running a MaxxFan on high, for example. How long could the optional vehicle batteries run a MaxxFan, continuously? Then, you're just screwed, I presume, when you've used too much juice, and need to start the engine.

Continuing with the MaxxFan on high, how long could a good pair of std. sized house batteries run the fan? And, how long could one of those giant 8D batteries run the fan?

So, say I did NOT have the optional dual vehicle batteries. Does that mean the space under the driver seat is available as an appropriate location for house batteries? Would they fit? Would cabling into a CTEK system be convenient? That gear would have to be several feet away, from the seat pedestal, at least.

Still on house battery location... my unique needs would have me storing water on the driver side of van, so, battery weight might be best on right side, possibly in a box near the fender well, under the bed. Associated equipment would share this location. Would this be OK, with regard to necessary cable runs?

Hey, anyone that reads all of the above, and/or answers, thank you!

 

[Airedrifter]

Thanks, all. I've read the comments several times -- still working electrical comprehension.

I test-drove a 148" MR 250 with Ecoboost, today. Very nice ride! Nuthin' to complain about, there. 'Course, I had recently driven a 20-year-old, 21-foot Chevy van RV, which is a nasty beast, by comparison.

Ugh, it looks like I'll have to special order, to get 2-way manual lumbar seats 21C, either alone, or with the interior upgrade package 96C, with the 3.5L engine. I may as well go with the interior package, as I like the sliding door panel's corrugated plastic, as for the load area protection package.

BUT, what are real wait times running, now, for special orders? I had noted long waits indicated, back in mid-2014.

BTW, that corrugated plastic uses a honeycomb pattern, rather than linear channels that cardboard has. That should eliminate worries I had seen expressed on another thread, about potential moisture and mold building up in the corrugations.

On the electrical, I took note of KeithW's post about standard battery and alternator:

"I’m thinking the Transit “base” 150 amp alternator and single starter battery will be able to provide as much as the CTEK can process given the normal loads from the Transit, enabling the alternator to recharge a drawn down house battery with two or three hours of driving. (I say this having been unable to find a figure for the normal operating amp requirements of the transit. The Ford chat line was no help. But the dealer service manager said there should be ample reserve for what I described.)

The service manager also said that the dual battery set up is just the equivalent of a larger starter battery and would be of no value to me if I intend to power all the additions from the separate house battery."

This sort of matches my not-electrically-well-versed thinking:

1) Isn't an alternator doing very little work most of the time, such that the 150 amp std. alternator would have plenty of duty time and capacity to charge house batteries?

2) The twin starter batteries do seem overkill, IF they are primarily intended to be used by owners that DO NOT want to install a house battery system.

...leading me to wonder, how well could a person do, using that upgraded system,and not having house batteries. Let me focus on just running a MaxxFan on high, for example. How long could the optional vehicle batteries run a MaxxFan, continuously? Then, you're just screwed, I presume, when you've used too much juice, and need to start the engine.

Continuing with the MaxxFan on high, how long could a good pair of std. sized house batteries run the fan? And, how long could one of those giant 8D batteries run the fan?

So, say I did NOT have the optional dual vehicle batteries. Does that mean the space under the driver seat is available as an appropriate location for house batteries? Would they fit? Would cabling into a CTEK system be convenient? That gear would have to be several feet away, from the seat pedestal, at least.

Still on house battery location... my unique needs would have me storing water on the driver side of van, so, battery weight might be best on right side, possibly in a box near the fender well, under the bed. Associated equipment would share this location. Would this be OK, with regard to necessary cable runs?

Hey, anyone that reads all of the above, and/or answers, thank you!

As for figuring out how long anything would run any particular electrical device (fan or otherwise) you'll have to probably do the calculation yourself. As I don't know what the amp rating is for a Maxx fan, let's make up some numbers.

A device will either have a wattage rating or a amp rating (which is really a power draw number). So if a a device was rated as 1 amp, that generally means that it will draw 1 amp and with a 75 amp hour battery, it would technically run 75 hours. Though that is very misleading as there will be some losses and you really shouldn't run a battery below 50%. So a 1 amp device will run a little less than 37.5 hours.

If the device is rating in watts (and it's a 12vlt device), you'd divide the wattage rating by 12 (or 12.5 to be closer to actual voltage) to obtain the the amperage. So a 1200 watt device would be 100 amps. Then use the same formula as above.

And yes the lower rated alternator would do the trick in a longer period of time. But it will stress it more. As you want this to last as long as possible and the wattage of a factory electrical system is the cheapest you'll get, I'd go for the biggest factory system they have. In this case the 220 amp alternator.

And yes, one battery under your seat would allow for another, but it would have to be the same size as the factory battery as the space is very limited. And there's not a lot of room for extra wiring under there.

As to the distance for your electrical runs. I'd keep them as short as possible. It would be much more efficient to pump the water a bit further than run larger and more expensive wires.

I've probably confused you...

 

[lkruper]

As for figuring out how long anything would run any particular electrical device (fan or otherwise) you'll have to probably do the calculation yourself. ......

You seem to have a good handle on electrical. Do you know the output capacity of the 12V receptacle on the Transit? I know some options also include a rear outlet. Attaching the inverter to the battery directly gives more amps, but how much charging capacity would there be directly from the factory 12v outlet?

 

[Airedrifter]

You seem to have a good handle on electrical. Do you know the output capacity of the 12V receptacle on the Transit? I know some options also include a rear outlet. Attaching the inverter to the battery directly gives more amps, but how much charging capacity would there be directly from the factory 12v outlet?

You'll limit yourself by the fuse on the 12v outlet. You hope. In that the wiring for the 12v outlet is a smallish gage. I'm guessing 14 or 16 and then the wiring from the 12v plug (which also may have a fuse which will have its own limitations) will be small. Those small wires, even if you keep the amperage down, will probably cause a fairly long path from the battery to the inverter and with 12v you'll have a noticeable voltage drop. Most inverters have problems with low voltage.

Doing some math -- you'd probably have a maximum of about 15 amps. Thus you'd have a theoretical limit of somewhere around 180 watts. But still, you'd have a system that would be borderline the whole time. (Think hot. Hot wires, hot inverter, hot fuses and any poor connection, which 12v power ports are notorious for would exacerbate that.) I'm thinking you wouldn't want a 110v load of much more than 100 watts.

Just using the SWAG method of calculations.

 

[orton]

As I don't know what the amp rating is for a Maxx fan, let's make up some numbers.

Speed Amps

1 0.2
2 0.3
3 0.4
4 0.6
5 0.9
6 1.2
7 1.6
8 2.0
9 2.6
10 3.7

I seldom powered the Maxxair because I had a hole in the floor and with a open Maxxair I got air flow without using power.

 

[lkruper]

You'll limit yourself by the fuse on the 12v outlet. You hope. In that the wiring for the 12v outlet is a smallish gage. I'm guessing 14 or 16 and then the wiring from the 12v plug (which also may have a fuse which will have its own limitations) will be small. Those small wires, even if you keep the amperage down, will probably cause a fairly long path from the battery to the inverter and with 12v you'll have a noticeable voltage drop. Most inverters have problems with low voltage.

Doing some math -- you'd probably have a maximum of about 20 amps. Thus with the end product being 110v, you'd have a theoretical limit of somewhere around 2000 watts. But that is very misleading as inverters are not known for their efficiency. So I'd guess somewhere around 800 watts. But still, you'd have a system that would be borderline the whole time. (Think hot. Hot wires, hot inverter, hot fuses and any poor connection, which 12v power ports are notorious for would exacerbate that.) I'm thinking you wouldn't want a 110v load of much more than 500 watts.

Just using the SWAG method of calculations.

Thanks for doing that analysis. Even with that conservative estimate, and the caveats for real-world performance, it would seem that the factory system would produce as much charging capacity as a the typical Class B solar installation (at least while driving) at a much lower price point and with no modifications to the vehicle. At the very least it would seem that an inverter plugged into the 12v system to a charger would charge 4 Trojan 6V batteries (50% of 450 AH usable capacity at 12v) in about 5 hours of driving.


Did I do that calculation correctly? 500/12 =~ 40AH?

 

[orton]

You seem to have a good handle on electrical. Do you know the output capacity of the 12V receptacle on the Transit? I know some options also include a rear outlet. Attaching the inverter to the battery directly gives more amps, but how much charging capacity would there be directly from the factory 12v outlet?

Owners manual states 180 watts.

Rear outlet is option # 90B "Power Point" at retail cost of $15.00

I will have a 1000 watt pure sine "vehicle" inverter powered by the Transit 12 volt system. It will provide power to the "house" 1000 watt Magnum inverter/charger/transfer switch. Magnum has maximum charging rate of 50 amps.

My primary method of house battery charging will be a 300 watt solar panel controlled by a Morningstar SunSaver 15 amp MPPT solar controller. The charging from the "vehicle" inverter will be a backup in case of multiple gray days. Went one year in Sprinter with only solar charging with a 205 watt panel.

 

[Airedrifter]

Thanks for doing that analysis. Even with that conservative estimate, and the caveats for real-world performance, it would seem that the factory system would produce as much charging capacity as a the typical Class B solar installation (at least while driving) at a much lower price point and with no modifications to the vehicle. At the very least it would seem that an inverter plugged into the 12v system to a charger would charge 4 Trojan 6V batteries (50% of 450 AH usable capacity at 12v) in about 5 hours of driving.


Did I do that calculation correctly? 500/12 =~ 40AH?

I made a mistake. I went from 12v amps to 110v amps. That's wrong.

Let me do it again and I'll go back and edit my first response.

Orton reports that it is a 15 amp circuit for the 12v outlet. (180/12 = 15)

So that's 180 watts to the inverter. that would calculate to 1.6 amps at 110v. (see how I jumped a step in my previous cal.)

But reviewing your question, you seem to be implying that you want to run an inverter from the 12v outlet to power a 110v charger? Is that right? I wouldn't do that. That would introduce 2 wasteful conversions. 1 from the inverter and one from the charger. Just run the 12v directly to the battery. And then you'd have the max charging available from the 15 amp circuit. It would take 2.6 hours to charge 40 amp hours.

 

[orton]

I made a mistake. I went from 12v amps to 110v amps. That's wrong.

Let me do it again and I'll go back and edit my first response.

Orton reports that it is a 15 amp circuit for the 12v outlet. (180/12 = 15)

So that's 180 watts to the inverter. that would calculate to 1.6 amps at 110v. (see how I jumped a step in my previous cal.)

But reviewing your question, you seem to be implying that you want to run an inverter from the 12v outlet to power a 110v charger? Is that right? I wouldn't do that. That would introduce 2 wasteful conversions. 1 from the inverter and one from the charger. Just run the 12v directly to the battery. And then you'd have the max charging available from the 15 amp circuit. But you'd only have 1.6 and that would take 25 hours to charge 40 amp hours.

Running 12 volts directly to the battery would probably blow the fuse with a discharged battery. You need something to limit the amperage from the vehicle plug. The plug in inverter does that function.

A better solution is to buy a larger inverter and power it from the 60 amp power point on driver's seat base. I would not be concerned about the approx. 15% loss in the inverter to get 120 volts AC and the 15% loss in the charger to convert 120 volt AC back to DC. The power is basically free. I doubt if anyone can measure the change in fuel economy that occurs when alternator is producing the power used.

 

[Airedrifter]

Running 12 volts directly to the battery would probably blow the fuse with a discharged battery. You need something to limit the amperage from the vehicle plug. The plug in inverter does that function.

A better solution is to buy a larger inverter and power it from the 60 amp power point on driver's seat base. I would not be concerned about the approx. 15% loss in the inverter to get 120 volts AC and the 15% loss in the charger to convert 120 volt AC back to DC. The power is basically free. I doubt if anyone can measure the change in fuel economy that occurs when alternator is producing the power used.

You're right that it could draw too much for the fuse but I disagree with your solution. An inverter steals twice. A 12v charger/regulator would be much preferable. The losses manifest themselves in the time it would take to charge.

 

[orton]

You're right that it could draw too much for the fuse but I disagree with your solution. An inverter steals twice. A 12v charger/regulator would be much preferable. The losses manifest themselves in the time it would take to charge.

The advantage of using an inverter is the 120 volt output can power a smart charger that has bulk, absorb and float charging that can be programed to match your particular house battery. You should not charge different vehicle and house batteries at the same time. They have different charging requirements. Not recommended to charge different size, type, age, manufacturer batteries at same time.
Steals from whom? When power is free it is not stealing.

Time to charge is dependent on the charge rate of the charger. If the vehicle powered inverter is large enough to provide the chargers maximum charging power, then the charger is charging at its maximum.

A side benefit to a vehicle powered inverter is the availability of 120 volt AC power while you drive without depleting your house battery. You can charge your house battery or heat shower water or run a 120 volt heater in back of van. I also can turn on the vehicle inverter while driving which makes the 12V DC /120V AC refrigerator run on 120 volts while I drive. That way all the solar produced power is used to charge the house battery instead of part to charge and part to run the refrigerator.

 

[lkruper]

I made a mistake. I went from 12v amps to 110v amps. That's wrong.

Let me do it again and I'll go back and edit my first response.

Orton reports that it is a 15 amp circuit for the 12v outlet. (180/12 = 15)

So that's 180 watts to the inverter. that would calculate to 1.6 amps at 110v. (see how I jumped a step in my previous cal.)

But reviewing your question, you seem to be implying that you want to run an inverter from the 12v outlet to power a 110v charger? Is that right? I wouldn't do that. That would introduce 2 wasteful conversions. 1 from the inverter and one from the charger. Just run the 12v directly to the battery. And then you'd have the max charging available from the 15 amp circuit. It would take 2.6 hours to charge 40 amp hours.

Thanks to both of you. I agree that if I owned the van I would not consider doing this, but I am working up a design whereby I rent a van for a week or two for several years using modules (such as house power) that I have pre-configured and set up ahead of time.


So it would appear that I have 15 amps at 12v to work with which is fully supported by the Ford vehicle charging system. Its a bit slow at charging but looks like 4 6V Trojan 105s at 225/6V = 550AH at 50% discharge would take 18 hours for 4 6v batteries or 9 hours for 2 6v batteries. That is a bit slow but could be supplemented by an external solar panel set up on a tripod for camping or some other means.


Solar panels do not give 100% output while driving because of the time of year and orientation. The 180w from the 12v receptacle might actually rival one high density solar panel mounted on the roof.


However, you do bring up the inefficiency of the inverter, so it would take even longer (30% longer?)


It would seem to me that a solar charge controller might work instead of a battery charger, although it would not be the smart three-stage charger. Does the charger controller care if the ~14-15v is coming from a solar panel or a 12v receptacle? I could also switch to the smart three-stage charger when on shore power which can complete the charge.