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The Battleborn battery guide says "can be installed in any orientation" - but I have to say I'm leery of not installing them base down!

Has anyone installed them in another orientation?

Specifically, it would be convenient to install my four BB10012 with the 7x9" end down, with the 13" long side vertical, making a package 9x28x13, or a 9x31x13 if I leave an air gap between the units. Obviously the mechanicals would have to be strong enough to prevent them toppling in an emergency, but that seems do-able. That puts them just inside the wheel arch, and lets the inverter-charger mount on top of the wheel arch, and still fit the whole lot under the cooktop. The space above the batteries is good for bus-bars, fuses, breakers, etc.

The alternative is to stack two on bottom and two above (13x18x18), but the 18 is a little tall for the space I have.
 

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No reason not to. There's no liquid to spill and they're pretty sealed up anyway.

Inside, there are smaller self-contained cells (16550, 18550, or similar) which are also sealed.

You could even probably mount them upside down if the application called for it.
 

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The Battleborn battery guide says "can be installed in any orientation" - but I have to say I'm leery of not installing them base down!

Has anyone installed them in another orientation?

Specifically, it would be convenient to install my four BB10012 with the 7x9" end down, with the 13" long side vertical, making a package 9x28x13, or a 9x31x13 if I leave an air gap between the units. Obviously the mechanicals would have to be strong enough to prevent them toppling in an emergency, but that seems do-able. That puts them just inside the wheel arch, and lets the inverter-charger mount on top of the wheel arch, and still fit the whole lot under the cooktop. The space above the batteries is good for bus-bars, fuses, breakers, etc.

The alternative is to stack two on bottom and two above (13x18x18), but the 18 is a little tall for the space I have.
I have the same number of BB batteries and am also struggling with the best place to put them. We will also have a Victron 3000W inverter, which weighs 35 lbs. We ordered a 148” WB non-extended. You?

I want to keep the batteries and inverter on the driver’s side, which is the same side as the extended range fuel tank. Our fresh water tank and heavy gear will go on the passenger’s side, keeping the weight fairly balanced. I also want to leave as much space as possible between the rear wheel wells. I think I will have to put a battery or two over the driver’s wheel well in order to accomplish this.

I’m curious to see what you have in mind. Drawings? Pictures?
 

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I would stack them all vertical to where you would end up with a 52 inch tall tower with plenty of room above to mount the fuse block and bus bars , just a idea ,
 

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If stacked, just know their CG will be higher, and harder to secure. I'm mounting my 6 Lion UT-1300's at floor level, but with the bases pointed at the driver-side wall. They are inside my dinette seat box and with them on their short side, I'll have easy access to both terminals.
 

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The Battleborn battery guide says "can be installed in any orientation" - but I have to say I'm leery of not installing them base down!
...
Absolutely can be installed in any orientation. It's built of packs of cylindrical cells and while the have cells have electrolyte nothing will spill because each of the cells is a complete casing, and the guts are glued in place. That's why it is so much more expensive than a lot of the inexpensive imports.
 

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Absolutely can be installed in any orientation. It's built of packs of cylindrical cells and while the have cells have electrolyte nothing will spill because each of the cells is a complete casing, and the guts are glued in place. That's why it is so much more expensive than a lot of the inexpensive imports.
Would you say that the fact that the Battleborn is made up of a large number of cylindrical cells makes it more intrinsically safe than a similarly well constructed battery (not a cheap import) made from a smaller number of large prismatic cells in the event of an electrical failure or physical damage?
 

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Would you say that the fact that the Battleborn is made up of a large number of cylindrical cells makes it more intrinsically safe than a similarly well constructed battery (not a cheap import) made from a smaller number of large prismatic cells in the event of an electrical failure or physical damage?
Prismatics and such designs can be just as safe.
Not what you asked, but do pay attention to cell orientation for prismatic and pouch batteries because prismatic have hermetic seals around the terminals and for both the foils inside may be unevenly supported if not designed for the orientation you want.

One very positive aspect about the BB design is the spacing between the cells. If a single cell goes into thermal runaway, that space dissipates the heat flow to adjacent cells. Some cars and the new NASA EVA packs for space suits use that technique.
 

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Prismatics and such designs can be just as safe.
Not what you asked, but do pay attention to cell orientation for prismatic and pouch batteries because prismatic have hermetic seals around the terminals and for both the foils inside may be unevenly supported if not designed for the orientation you want.

One very positive aspect about the BB design is the spacing between the cells. If a single cell goes into thermal runaway, that space dissipates the heat flow to adjacent cells. Some cars and the new NASA EVA packs for space suits use that technique.
Thanks. So unless otherwise vetted, it's best to install the prismatic upright. ✔
I have not seen any commercially built prismatic batteries with spacing between the cells.
So if building a DIY prismatic bank, spacing between the cells would be a good idea?
Do you think the aluminum cased cells are preferable to the plastic ones from a safety perspective?
 

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Thanks. So unless otherwise vetted, it's best to install the prismatic upright. ✔
I have not seen any commercially built prismatic batteries with spacing between the cells.
So if building a DIY prismatic bank, spacing between the cells would be a good idea?
Do you think the aluminum cased cells are preferable to the plastic ones from a safety perspective?
I don't think casing material makes much difference. Have seen stainless, plastic, and aluminum.

Some prismatics need space to swell and contract during charge discharge, while others are meant to be tightly packed. You'll need to go with what the manufacturer recommends.
IF they need to be tightly packed, then yes an aluminum plate can act as a heat sink if extending beyond the edge of the cells.
One thing about prismatic I do recommend is to try to use woven buss bars or even the ones shaped like an omega symbol, not straight ones. As cells vibrate or swell, straight buss bars can put sideways forces on the terminals and break the seals.
 

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I don't think casing material makes much difference. Have seen stainless, plastic, and aluminum.

Some prismatics need space to swell and contract during charge discharge, while others are meant to be tightly packed. You'll need to go with what the manufacturer recommends.
IF they need to be tightly packed, then yes an aluminum plate can act as a heat sink if extending beyond the edge of the cells.
One thing about prismatic I do recommend is to try to use woven buss bars or even the ones shaped like an omega symbol, not straight ones. As cells vibrate or swell, straight buss bars can put sideways forces on the terminals and break the seals.
Thanks again. More great tips. I like the heat sink idea. The point about the buss bars certainly falls into the category of an important detail that would not be obvious to the uninformed ... like me.

Of course I may very well go with a high quality commercial product, as you suggested might make sense MANY posts ago, but this information about some of the finer points is still vary valuable to me and you sharing your expertise is greatly appreciated.

There was a discount high end clothing store (Sym's) with a slogan that always resonated with me: "An educated consumer is our best customer"
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have the same number of BB batteries and am also struggling with the best place to put them. We will also have a Victron 3000W inverter, which weighs 35 lbs. We ordered a 148” WB non-extended. You?

I want to keep the batteries and inverter on the driver’s side, which is the same side as the extended range fuel tank. Our fresh water tank and heavy gear will go on the passenger’s side, keeping the weight fairly balanced. I also want to leave as much space as possible between the rear wheel wells. I think I will have to put a battery or two over the driver’s wheel well in order to accomplish this.

I’m curious to see what you have in mind. Drawings? Pictures?
148 Non-extended L3H3 350 - so very similar.
I'm planning to put the batteries end-down adjacent to the passenger wheel arch, 4 in a row.
I think they should fit within an 18" deep kitchen cabinet, with the inverter above the wheel arch, and still leave room for the induction cooktop on top. Nice short wiring. Fridge behind. Sink in front. Big water tank balancing out the weight on the drivers side.
 

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148 Non-extended L3H3 350 - so very similar.
I'm planning to put the batteries end-down adjacent to the passenger wheel arch, 4 in a row.
I think they should fit within an 18" deep kitchen cabinet, with the inverter above the wheel arch, and still leave room for the induction cooktop on top. Nice short wiring. Fridge behind. Sink in front. Big water tank balancing out the weight on the drivers side.
A picture of this setup would be nice , sounds like a good plan.
 

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The chemistry of cells Battleborn uses (and many other similar use batteries -- LiFePo4) is allegedly much safer than other lithium-ion chemistries, and a punctured/overheated BattleBorn battery will not burn spectacularly like a NCA-based Tesla will.
See tons of articles on the net, but here's one that should be trustworthy: https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

Of course nothing is absolutely safe.
 

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The chemistry of cells Battleborn uses (and many other similar use batteries -- LiFePo4) is allegedly much safer than other lithium-ion chemistries, and a punctured/overheated BattleBorn battery will not burn spectacularly like a NCA-based Tesla will.
See tons of articles on the net, but here's one that should be trustworthy: https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

Of course nothing is absolutely safe.
I saw that when they did it as a follow-up to the container tests and know some of the people involved. Their bottom line pertaining to this thread could be:

"In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 would be considered the safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low likelihood for thermal runaway to propagate."

However, there were some big caveats such as:
It was a fairly informal low-budget test for the Tech center that began with "What do we do with all these left-over cells from the container tests?" Then they bought some cells to fill out the group.
That's why this report notes that there were too few cells and repetition of the tests to be definitive.
It's also why they note their test setup may have induced low reliability and the high variability seen in their results. There was a lot of conference discussion in our battery community that this was especially true in seeing the total lack of propagation in the LiFePo4 cells. Bottom line is that stacking cells NOT in a flat row would be much more realistic. When surrounded by other cells they are much more likely to create runaway for reasons related to heat transfer and dwell time.

So it was good for what the report was - but take it with a really big grain of salt.
 
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