[danman]

Sup guys?? This has been a lingering issue for me figure out and I know there is some discussion on this subject in various threads, but the ideas are spread out and I haven't seen a dedicated thread and this is kinda fundamental, so...

I'm trying to obtain a positive +12V signal that is active only when the engine is running (i.e., there should be no signal for Key states - OFF (0), Accessory (1), Run but Engine OFF (2), Crank (3)). Pin 3 on connector C33-E only provides the negative version. The BEMM states, "If a positive (+12V) engine run signal is required, it can be done by using the switched ground to control an ignition fed relay, to give this output".

Okay, so to obtain a +12V signal the way Ford recommends it, I would like to confirm the following wiring to accomplish what Ford is trying to describe using a regular relay. Pin 3 connected to terminal 85. Pin 6 on the same connector (+12V ignition signal) connected to both terminals 86 and 30. This should generate a +12V on terminal 87.

The BEMM also states that the fitment of the Auxiliary Fuse Panel (whatever that means) will provide a power +12V side for the relay, so alternatively, this "fitment" should be able to be connected to terminal 86 instead instead of Pin 6, and actually I think this might be better but only because that's what Ford recommends.

If anyone is wondering, this +12V signal will be connected to the ignition terminal on an external alternator regulator (Balmar MC-614)

Thanks guyssss

 

[joefromga]

Did you mean to post a photo? I'm not seeing anything bit relays are generally easy.
86 and 85 are your coil switch so one is ground and one is 12v engine running. Unless you don't have a 12v engine running and they are telling you there's a ground switch that turns from open to ground with the engine running. In that case use that engine running to 85 and 12v constant to 86 and 30 to your accessory. (unless your accessory needs ground to function then use 30 to ground and 86 to ground)

 

[danman]

Did you mean to post a photo? I'm not seeing anything bit relays are generally easy.
86 and 85 are your coil switch so one is ground and one is 12v engine running. Unless you don't have a 12v engine running and they are telling you there's a ground switch that turns from open to ground with the engine running. In that case use that engine running to 85 and 12v constant to 86 and 30 to your accessory. (unless your accessory needs ground to function then use 30 to ground and 86 to ground)

Thanks @joefomga! I actually didn't mean to post a photo because i was just describing a regular relay (and i know you guys are pro) -- the accessory needs a positive ignition signal.. and your comment seems correct, but don't you mean "12v constant to 86 and 30, and 87 to your accessory?". If so we are both on the same page!

 

[joefromga]

87 and 30 will be connected when you crank the motor.

The are connected using ground on 85 and your engine running switch on 86.

You need to power your accessory and you'll do that with a fused 12+ on 87 and the accessory on 30. You only use the 12+ engine running to power the relay coil. The accessory will get it's power from a nice, solid, fused to battery source so it doesn't draw from the already used 12+ engine running source. That will only power the relay which need just a tiny amount of power to operate.

Relays are amazing.

 

[joefromga]

If you connect 87 and 30 together your accessory won't turn off.

 

[danman]

Yes, you are correct. When I stated "12v constant to 86 and 30, and 87 to your accessory", I meant that +12v would be connected to both 86 and 30. The result being 87 could be connected to the accessory for a +12v engine run signal. However, since both the relay and the accessory ignition signal input only use minimal power, 86 and 30 should be able to be connected together (but still be fused).

 

[swellguy]

Sup guys?? This has been a lingering issue for me figure out and I know there is some discussion on this subject in various threads, but the ideas are spread out and I haven't seen a dedicated thread and this is kinda fundamental, so...

I'm trying to obtain a positive +12V signal that is active only when the engine is running (i.e., there should be no signal for Key states - OFF (0), Accessory (1), Run but Engine OFF (2), Crank (3)). Pin 3 on connector C33-E only provides the negative version. The BEMM states, "If a positive (+12V) engine run signal is required, it can be done by using the switched ground to control an ignition fed relay, to give this output".

Okay, so to obtain a +12V signal the way Ford recommends it, I would like to confirm the following wiring to accomplish what Ford is trying to describe using a regular relay. Pin 3 connected to terminal 85. Pin 6 on the same connector (+12V ignition signal) connected to both terminals 86 and 30. This should generate a +12V on terminal 87.

The BEMM also states that the fitment of the Auxiliary Fuse Panel (whatever that means) will provide a power +12V side for the relay, so alternatively, this "fitment" should be able to be connected to terminal 86 instead instead of Pin 6, and actually I think this might be better but only because that's what Ford recommends.

If anyone is wondering, this +12V signal will be connected to the ignition terminal on an external alternator regulator (Balmar MC-614)

Thanks guyssss

I have no idea what I'm doing, but I initially tried wiring pins 3 and 6 together in order to drive my 200A relay, but it didn't work. Maybe it didn't drive enough current. So, I ended up using pin 6 to ground with the understanding that the batteries will be tied together in Accessory mode (which I don't want). I just have to be careful. It works fine, btw, except for this caveat. Connecting pins 3 and 6 caused the relay to "chatter" but not stay on. I couldn't find straight power on that connector, perhaps if pin 3 was wired to power it would work.

My van didn't come with the CCP's, can you order this and the fuse box from Ford? If so, anyone know what the cost is? I ended wiring everything directly to the battery which I guess is not recommended.

Btw, I only see at most 40 amps coming out of the alternator this way to the house battery, does anyone see anything else? I think I may have oversized things a bit, 200A relay, 175A fuse coming off the battery. I think the CCP's can only handle 60A right?

 

[asdrew]

I thought all Transits had at least one CCP on the outside of the seat base like mine, if you have optional wiring options (upfitters, batteries, etc) you get three, each fused @ 60A.

The cost for the additional CCP's and fuses is real cheap, some assembly required. There is info in one or two threads here from those that have done it.

 

[swellguy]

I thought all Transits had at least one CCP on the outside of the seat base like mine, if you have optional wiring options (upfitters, batteries, etc) you get three, each fused @ 60A.

The cost for the additional CCP's and fuses is real cheap, some assembly required. There is info in one or two threads here from those that have done it.

I'm pretty sure I don't, but I'll look again. I've no fuses except in the first location, single-battery base-model system. Where is the fuse for the single CCP?

 

[asdrew]

Outside rear edge of seat base under a 1x6" or so plastic cover at an angle.
Mine is a single battery XLT wagon without the upgraded wiring harness or the other stuff.

 

[joefromga]

What does pin 6 provide?

If you are getting ground at engine run then use that on 85 and use a 12+ constant (or switched) on 86. That will turn on the relay.

The other two terminals are for the accessory you are trying to power or activate. Use 12+ constant on 87 and 30 goes to your external accessory, on this case the alternator's terminal.


Relays are simple. You're just using an existing switch and ground to provide a device the ability to connect two OTHER wires or devices thus completing a circuit. Almost like a remotely control.

But since your already existing switch (usually ignition) is sized to only handle it's own load you need to provide another power source (fused wire from battery) to power the device you are adding to the van. It could be lights, horn, siren, water heater, amplifier, additional battery etc.

 

[joefromga]

I have no idea what I'm doing, but I initially tried wiring pins 3 and 6 together in order to drive my 200A relay, but it didn't work. Maybe it didn't drive enough current. So, I ended up using pin 6 to ground with the understanding that the batteries will be tied together in Accessory mode (which I don't want). I just have to be careful. It works fine, btw, except for this caveat. Connecting pins 3 and 6 caused the relay to "chatter" but not stay on. I couldn't find straight power on that connector, perhaps if pin 3 was wired to power it would work.

My van didn't come with the CCP's, can you order this and the fuse box from Ford? If so, anyone know what the cost is? I ended wiring everything directly to the battery which I guess is not recommended.

Btw, I only see at most 40 amps coming out of the alternator this way to the house battery, does anyone see anything else? I think I may have oversized things a bit, 200A relay, 175A fuse coming off the battery. I think the CCP's can only handle 60A right?

The OP said pin 3 was switched ground meaning that it's open or nothing with the key off and it's ground without engine running. Don't connect that to a 12+ wire. You probably shorted your relay coil thus causing the buzzing.

If it's switched ground you can use it on 85 and a 12+ constant to 86. That will activate your relay on engine run.

 

[joefromga]

175 amp fuses are hard to pop. If you're using less than 2 GA wire I would only use maybe a 90 amp fuse there.

A small wire could turn orange hot in 2 seconds without blowing that size fuse if it shorts.

 

[swellguy]

The OP said pin 3 was switched ground meaning that it's open or nothing with the key off and it's ground without engine running. Don't connect that to a 12+ wire. You probably shorted your relay coil thus causing the buzzing.

If it's switched ground you can use it on 85 and a 12+ constant to 86. That will activate your relay on engine run.

Hey Joe-

I refer to you pp. 117 and 118 of the BEMM. I'm talking about connector C-33E, the description of pins 3 and 6 is there. Pin 3 is a switched ground that can be used to get an engine run signal (p. 118). Pin 6 is active +12V when in accessory or run (p. 118). By my logic, if 6 is active on run and accessory, and 3 is only attached to ground when the engine is running, shouldn't the circuit be completed only when the engine is running? It didn't work, as I mentioned, but can't figure out what's wrong with this logic.

I never found the CCP's on my seat pedestal "A" on p. 123, figure 192338. I have a base model cargo van. Nor do I have an auxiliary fuse panel "5" on p. 119, Figure 189517. Where would the single CCP be on a base model, the same place? The picture in the BEMM shows it on the outside rear of the seat pedestal, is that where yours is? I have nothing there the last time I checked, I'll check again in daytime.

Btw, did you use 4S7T-14A459-V to connect to these signals? I was hoping to only tap +12V from there. Hence, pin 6 looked like a good option (and worked with an unswitched ground).

I'm not sure where these 8_' reference numbers you keep referring to are in the BEMM, can you direct me? Thanks.

 

[swellguy]

175 amp fuses are hard to pop. If you're using less than 2 GA wire I would only use maybe a 90 amp fuse there.

A small wire could turn orange hot in 2 seconds without blowing that size fuse if it shorts.

Well, I'm using 4 GA wire, so they're pretty beefy. My logic was that I'm eventually putting a bypass wire with a switch from the house battery around the relay to the starter for jump starts in the event I'm in the bush and the starter battery fails. Seems like anything less than the ballpark of 175 amps is gonna blow that fuse when I do the jump. What size would you recommend for such an application? A straight up short is gonna blow that fuse, that's all I'm worried about.

 

[joefromga]

Hey Joe-

I refer to you pp. 117 and 118 of the BEMM. I'm talking about connector C-33E, the description of pins 3 and 6 is there. Pin 3 is a switched ground that can be used to get an engine run signal (p. 118). Pin 6 is active +12V when in accessory or run (p. 118). By my logic, if 6 is active on run and accessory, and 3 is only attached to ground when the engine is running, shouldn't the circuit be completed only when the engine is running? It didn't work, as I mentioned, but can't figure out what's wrong with this logic.

I never found the CCP's on my seat pedestal "A" on p. 123, figure 192338. I have a base model cargo van. Nor do I have an auxiliary fuse panel "5" on p. 119, Figure 189517. Where would the single CCP be on a base model, the same place? The picture in the BEMM shows it on the outside rear of the seat pedestal, is that where yours is? I have nothing there the last time I checked, I'll check again in daytime.

Btw, did you use 4S7T-14A459-V to connect to these signals? I was hoping to only tap +12V from there. Hence, pin 6 looked like a good option (and worked with an unswitched ground).

I'm not sure where these 8_' reference numbers you keep referring to are in the BEMM, can you direct me? Thanks.

If you've measured ground and 12+ then those wires connected to a relay on 85 and 86 should make the relay click and latch. If not, then either the circuit isn't giving you ground or 12+constant or the relay isn't working properly.

The 85 86 and 87 and 30 are numbers on the standard automotive relays.

My ccp terminals are in my seat post left rear. They are barely accessible while standing with the door open and seat all the way forward. They are just bolts with nuts to connect a ring terminal. It says on the plastic cover 3x 60a. I don't have up fitter switches. I haven't checked if there's a fuse for them but I assume there is.

 

[joefromga]

Well, I'm using 4 GA wire, so they're pretty beefy. My logic was that I'm eventually putting a bypass wire with a switch from the house battery around the relay to the starter for jump starts in the event I'm in the bush and the starter battery fails. Seems like anything less than the ballpark of 175 amps is gonna blow that fuse when I do the jump. What size would you recommend for such an application? A straight up short is gonna blow that fuse, that's all I'm worried about.

I used to tap into a triple battery bank through a 200a Stinger relay sometimes for that same reason - to jump my low starting battery in a van I had years ago. It always worked and I had remote start in that van so I'd go in back, connect the relay manually (which connected the triple bank to the starter battery) , and then click start and it always worked fine.

This was a stereo demo van with around 8000 watts of amplifiers so I was using 2/0 wire and a 300amp fuse.

I would think a 175 would probably be Ok for starting assist. Flat dead in the cold may pull more amperage but you'd have to test it.

 

[swellguy]

If you've measured ground and 12+ then those wires connected to a relay on 85 and 86 should make the relay click and latch. If not, then either the circuit isn't giving you ground or 12+constant or the relay isn't working properly.

The 85 86 and 87 and 30 are numbers on the standard automotive relays.

My ccp terminals are in my seat post left rear. They are barely accessible while standing with the door open and seat all the way forward. They are just bolts with nuts to connect a ring terminal. It says on the plastic cover 3x 60a. I don't have up fitter switches. I haven't checked if there's a fuse for them but I assume there is.

Thanks for the review on a the relay's function, not confused by that or how to hook it up (my 200A relay doesn't have the 8_ reference numbers, it's like your Stinger), and it works, but like I said, it has the disadvantage that it's connected during Accessory as well. The connector I referred to in the BEMM is specifically for things like add-ons, so I'm trying to use the kit provided by Ford so I don't have to hack into my wiring. I just didn't know if anyone else attempted the same thing. Seems like one relay should do it, but someone else suggested two.

Like I said before, I have a base model, it has no auxiliary fuse box, and no provision for power where the CCP's are. I confirmed that yesterday, it's simply a cover with some plastic on it.

Also, FYI, ran my house battery down a bit, got the alternator to drive 75A to it today, I'm glad I have that 4GA wire and 175A fuse.

 

[danman]

Hey Joe-

I refer to you pp. 117 and 118 of the BEMM. I'm talking about connector C-33E, the description of pins 3 and 6 is there. Pin 3 is a switched ground that can be used to get an engine run signal (p. 118). Pin 6 is active +12V when in accessory or run (p. 118). By my logic, if 6 is active on run and accessory, and 3 is only attached to ground when the engine is running, shouldn't the circuit be completed only when the engine is running? It didn't work, as I mentioned, but can't figure out what's wrong with this logic.

I never found the CCP's on my seat pedestal "A" on p. 123, figure 192338. I have a base model cargo van. Nor do I have an auxiliary fuse panel "5" on p. 119, Figure 189517. Where would the single CCP be on a base model, the same place? The picture in the BEMM shows it on the outside rear of the seat pedestal, is that where yours is? I have nothing there the last time I checked, I'll check again in daytime.

Btw, did you use 4S7T-14A459-V to connect to these signals? I was hoping to only tap +12V from there. Hence, pin 6 looked like a good option (and worked with an unswitched ground).

I'm not sure where these 8_' reference numbers you keep referring to are in the BEMM, can you direct me? Thanks.

sup dudes~ you guys have a really nice discussion going on here The manual wants you to use the "fitment" of the auxiliary fuse panel whatever that is for a +12v engine run signal, and that is caveated for only use with the -12v engine run signal and a relay. The reason they don't actually give you a +12v engine run signal has to do with some crapola about the PCM that no one really cares about. I wanted to connect it to pin 5 (i.e., key in ignition) to provide ignition power to my peripheral device, or rather so that the relay can provide power.

On a side note, the customer connection points provide 3 x 60A, or 144A if you connect them with a busbar (%80 of 160A), and that is rated continuous as long as the engine is running.

 

[swellguy]

sup dudes~ you guys have a really nice discussion going on here The manual wants you to use the "fitment" of the auxiliary fuse panel whatever that is for a +12v engine run signal, and that is caveated for only use with the -12v engine run signal and a relay. The reason they don't actually give you a +12v engine run signal has to do with some crapola about the PCM that no one really cares about. I wanted to connect it to pin 5 (i.e., key in ignition) to provide ignition power to my peripheral device, or rather so that the relay can provide power.

On a side note, the customer connection points provide 3 x 60A, or 144A if you connect them with a busbar (%80 of 160A), and that is rated continuous as long as the engine is running.

Thanks, unfortunately, no CCP's or aux fuse panel in mine since it's a base model. Not sure why you're flagging pin 5, it says it's for switch illumination, which I assume only is only when the lights are on.

I'll probably eventually try a power jumper off the battery to pin 3. Not sure why the pin 3/6 combo doesn't work. Btw, just got the connecter to connect to C33-E, I'll let you guys know how that works out.