Opinions on full insulation kit - Page 2 - Ford Transit USA Forum
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 09:02:PM
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FYI:

I posted some of the info directly applicable to this a while back on a Sprinter forum (naturally, it fairly quickly turned into the usual p*ssing contest.),

Anyone who is interested might start around here:
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...0&postcount=36
Of particular interest to those who overnight in very cold temps is the chart in this post:
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...5&postcount=42

The cliff note version is:
1. radiant barriers only work if there is an air gap,
2. the best place for a radiant barrier is outside the conditioned space, but inside is better than none at all
3. adding a thin foam or bubble layer in between two radiant barriers (LowE or Reflectix) is not as good as a true air gap of similar thickness, and
4. thin foam or bubble layer adds practically no R-value to a radiant barrier,
5. Polyiso spray foam performs poorly in cold temps, but that is *not* the case for all forms of PU foam, in particular, Dow Thermax, which outperforms XPS (e.g.: Foamular) by 30% even in cold temps.
6. The exact insulation scheme depends on whether the design is biased toward limiting heat gain (hot climate) or limiting heat loss (cold climate).
7. No matter what the climate, Thermax (or Tuff-R) is just about unbeatable for thermal insulation, at a fraction of the price of Thinsulate
8. Materials designed mainly as acoustic insulation (e.g.: Thinsulate 600L or hydrophobic melamine foam) have only about half the R-value (relative to thickness) as Thermax, i.e.: similar to ordinary fiberglass "batt" thermal insulation.
9. Foams designed mainly as thermal insulation (e.g.: Thermax or Foamular) aren't nearly as good for acoustic absorption as most fibrous insulation. But acoustic absorbers aren't very effective on low frequency noises (e.g.: a diesel truck idling nearby), which requires a limp mass barrier (e.g.: mass loaded vinyl).
10. Thermax is also fairly rigid, so you can't stuff it into tight cavities. But that also means it can serve as a reasonably supportive substrate for whatever veneer is used for the finished surface.

And yes, Thermax does comply with FMVSS 302
AFAIK, Foamular (XPS) does not.

Here's a few links to some of the studies / tech info that have guided my real-world experience:

http.insulationinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Thermal_Metrics_Project_Report.pdf
(chart on page 62)

http.dupont.com/content/dam/Dupont2.0/Products/Performance-Building-Solutions/literature/179-00263.pdf
(see chart on page 2 adds Thermax to the chart in the study above)

Here's Owens Corning's attempt to muddy the water by conflating Polyiso spray foam with PU foam sheating:
http://www.owenscorning.com/NetworkS...h-Bulletin.pdf
(chart on page 2)

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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 12:26:AM
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I wonder how accurate their "custom made to order" pieces are, and how much research they did before offering this product.

I see they offer a specific kit for a 148" Wheelbase Extended length low roof???? I guess if Ford ever builds one of those then you would be able to insulate it!

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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 12:47:AM
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It's hard for me to calculate how much I spent on insulation on my part-time camping, full-time driving van. I had leftover materials from different projects and didn't buy anything specifically for this van. Oh, I take that back, the day I got it I stopped at St Louis Ikea to get supplies for the drive back to CA (sofa bed, bedding, etc) and bought a bunch of $1.50 polyfil bed pillows that I stuffed into the wall cavities below the windows. They're still there, but behind panels now. Otherwise, I did a no-no and used denim insulation I had in some places, and some 1/2" polyiso foam above my ceiling panels. There really wasn't much else to insulate after using the pillows, because I have full windows. If I bought the stuff I used for insulation, I'd say it was easily under $50.

If I were doing it from scratch, I'd get thinsulate 600 for the walls and 400 for above the ceiling (I have less than an inch gap). Thermal and sound protection, AND fire resistant, and also made for automotive use. No worries about if you used the "right" stuff, because it's the gold standard.

I don't have much need for mega insulation because I don't camp in winter and I don't live in my car. I've spent a couple nights below freezing, and it wasn't a problem other than getting up to turn the engine on in the morning. The gas engines will heat the whole van in under ten minutes starting cold and idling. I don't need the entire interior to stay warm all night, and for the time it does need to be warm until I get in bed, idling and running the dash heater once every half hour for a few minutes is fine. And since this might only be a few days of cold overnight camping a year for me, I'm not concerned about it. Maybe I'll get a remote start if the price is low enough!

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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 12:55:AM
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Yeah, I'm surprised how many people are still thinking that foil covered bubble wrap (reflectex) is good insulation!
It's better than nothing, and the plastic layers prevent convection, but does little for conduction and radiation heat losses (better if there is a 2"+ gap between the interior and the foil side) or keeping heat out. The R value claims on the label are for use in ideal situations, not as van insulation.

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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 01:50:AM
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My plan is a little on the overboard side, but not as bad as some. I'm planing on some Noico sheets at 25% coverage on the larger panels of the walls and ceiling to quiet the lower sound frequencies, covered with Thinsulate SM600L. I have the factory wall liners, which I will cover in an upholstery foam and fabric, and put Low E SSR on the back of these panels, to take advantage of the air space between these panels and the SM600L on the van walls. All contact points for the OEM panels against the van structure will have a thermal break. I'm deciding between standard 1/8" closed cell foam or Noico 170mil heat and cool liner along the wall and ceiling ribs.

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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 03:56:AM
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We recently started using rechargeable Worx power shears to cut Thinsulate(TM) SM600L, SM400L and AU4002-5. We have always just used some new sharp fabric shears but these will help someone who's hands get tired easily. I added a shoe to the Worx power scissors so it works a lot better with the thicker materials. Below are some photos. The shoe is cut out of some aluminum flashing and glued on with superglue. These are not all that dangerous if you keep your fingers clear. I marked them up because I am Safety Patrol at the warehouse. Don't let your kids use them.




We are stocking the Worx power shears and I can add the shoe for you and include them with your Thinsulate(TM) roll. They should arrive next week and I'll ask Kim to get them listed right away.

One of the tricks is to roll up Thinsulate and then insert that into the wall. Then unroll and cut where it needs to go past the metal webs that hold the skin to the van structure. That reduces the amount of cutting by quite a bit and holds the Thinsulate in place as well.

The problem with pre-cut pieces of Thinsulate is that they will already have expanded to full thickness and that makes them harder to install. And figuring out where they go is quite a puzzle. Installing while the material is still compressed will make it easier. The vibration of driving will make it loft up over a period of a couple weeks to a month depending on miles driven.

All the best,
Hein
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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 08:53:AM
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I insulated by bare cargo van, including the doors, yesterday using Hein's SM600L. I didn't have to measure the sound level differences driving, it is like day and night. It is so worth the extra money to get a good insulator AND sound dampening on one step.
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post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 10:57:AM Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful responses.
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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 11:07:AM
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I hope no one actually buys that kit. Complete rip off. Plus the text that the corners will need to be cut and the roof sections need to be cut to size. R-38? Yea...NO!
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post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 12:17:PM
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https://www.buildagreenrv.com/design...ll-insulation/

2016, 250 cargo van, LWB, MR, 3.5, 3.31
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