Bad signs for "clean diesel" engines - Ford Transit USA Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2016, 08:25:PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
EddieZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 391 Post(s)
Garage
Bad signs for "clean diesel" engines

I caught a summary on Slashdot, talking about the VW diesel scandal, and moves in Europe to ban diesel engines in passenger cars, in cities. I found it interesting, since I had always thought Europe was a model of diesel availability and contentment.

I'm not a diesel guy, so, I find this kind of amusing. May be a cautionary tale for US diesel ownership.

Here it is: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/01/04/147219/the-dirty-truth-about-clean-diesel:

Volkswagen persuaded consumers it had created a new generation of so-called clean diesel cars — until investigators discovered that phony testing concealed that its vehicles emitted up to 40 times the permitted levels of pollutants during regular use. Now Taras Grescoe writes in the NY Times public outrage over the fraud obscures the much larger issue: "clean diesel" is causing a precipitous decline in air quality for millions of city-dwellers. Monitoring sites in European cities like London, Stuttgart, Munich, Paris, Milan and Rome have reported high levels of the nitrogen oxides and particulate matter, or soot, that help to create menacing smogs. Although automakers worked hard to convince consumers that a new generation of "clean diesel" cars were far less polluting, diesel has a fatal flaw. It tends to burn dirty, particularly at low speeds and temperatures. In cities, where so much driving is stop and start, incomplete diesel combustion produces pollution that is devastating for human health.

Fortunately, Volkswagen sold only half a million of its "clean diesel" cars to the American public before the emissions scandal broke. Today, fewer than 1 percent of the passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. run on diesel fuel. Europe is now scrambling to undo the damage. In London, Mayor Boris Johnson last year called for a national program to pay some drivers to scrap their diesel vehicles. In Paris, Mayor Anne Hidalgo has gained broad support for a proposed ban on diesel cars. "Last month, the signatories of the climate deal in Paris agreed that the world has to begin a long-term shift from fossil fuels to more sustainable forms of energy," concludes Grescoe. "Recognizing "clean diesel" for the oxymoron it is would be a good place to start."

Transit 250 Cargo MR LWB 3.5L w/3.31

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
EddieZ is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2016, 08:59:PM
Senior Member
 
hammerdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
What they really mean, is "Clean FOR A diesel". But that won't sell any oil burners.

As gasoline gets more efficient, and the engines get smaller and smaller, simultaneously, diesels get more complex exhaust after treatments and restrictive EGR equipment, the economy gap between them narrows. Throw in out of whack fuel costs, and it's a tough sell.

Says the guy with diesel Transit. HA. I still love the engine, but am luke warm on the transmission.

Still, my van is averaging 18 mpg. I know that if I had a 3.5 EB, I'd be struggling to get 10-12, especially the way I drive.

RIP Lemmy. Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

Long tall cargo 250 3.2 3.73lsd
hammerdown is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2016, 09:08:PM
Senior Member
 
Budsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,087
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieZ View Post
I caught a summary on Slashdot, talking about the VW diesel scandal, and moves in Europe to ban diesel engines in passenger cars, in cities. I found it interesting, since I had always thought Europe was a model of diesel availability and contentment.

I'm not a diesel guy, so, I find this kind of amusing. May be a cautionary tale for US diesel ownership.

Here it is: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/01/04/147219/the-dirty-truth-about-clean-diesel:

Volkswagen persuaded consumers it had created a new generation of so-called clean diesel cars — until investigators discovered that phony testing concealed that its vehicles emitted up to 40 times the permitted levels of pollutants during regular use. Now Taras Grescoe writes in the NY Times public outrage over the fraud obscures the much larger issue: "clean diesel" is causing a precipitous decline in air quality for millions of city-dwellers. Monitoring sites in European cities like London, Stuttgart, Munich, Paris, Milan and Rome have reported high levels of the nitrogen oxides and particulate matter, or soot, that help to create menacing smogs. Although automakers worked hard to convince consumers that a new generation of "clean diesel" cars were far less polluting, diesel has a fatal flaw. It tends to burn dirty, particularly at low speeds and temperatures. In cities, where so much driving is stop and start, incomplete diesel combustion produces pollution that is devastating for human health.

Fortunately, Volkswagen sold only half a million of its "clean diesel" cars to the American public before the emissions scandal broke. Today, fewer than 1 percent of the passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. run on diesel fuel. Europe is now scrambling to undo the damage. In London, Mayor Boris Johnson last year called for a national program to pay some drivers to scrap their diesel vehicles. In Paris, Mayor Anne Hidalgo has gained broad support for a proposed ban on diesel cars. "Last month, the signatories of the climate deal in Paris agreed that the world has to begin a long-term shift from fossil fuels to more sustainable forms of energy," concludes Grescoe. "Recognizing "clean diesel" for the oxymoron it is would be a good place to start."

Hah!

Wait until the government starts cracking down on DI gas engines (ala EcoBoost) for emitting huge particulate counts- so far they haven't tested for it- but when they do.......

http://www.caradvice.com.au/262537/d...engines-study/

http://www.transportenvironment.org/...-dirty-diesels

Much higher (10X) damaging particulate count than newer diesels.

"Beluga" 2015 350HD 3.2D, 3.73, EL, HR.
Budsky is online now  
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 01:13:AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Coastal Ga
Posts: 727
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
The sad part is they are still way cleaner than older diesels and way better engines. They drive great. Fast and torquey.
joefromga is online now  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 06:24:AM
Senior Member
 
Budsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,087
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
The whole opposition to "clean diesel" cars is misplaced- what they are really complaining about is all the older diesels, not the current crop of "clean diesels".
Current "clean diesels emit less particulate emissions than current DI gas engines. They also are referring to nitrous oxides which are high in older diesels but cut way down in newer diesel engines, at least in the US. Never mind what VW did to game the system- for which they will pay dearly.

It is also about Europe which has looser diesel emission standards than the US, which has the toughest emissions standards in the world.

Older diesels are much dirtier than current ones- I have a 96 F350 with the popular 7.3L Powerstroke- great engine- but it smokes visibly on startup, smokes some under heavy load and stinks.
The 3.2L diesel does none of that- I have yet to see any trace of smoke or smell that awful diesel exhaust stink.

"Beluga" 2015 350HD 3.2D, 3.73, EL, HR.

Last edited by Budsky; 01-05-2016 at 06:38:AM.
Budsky is online now  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 12:41:PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeast WA
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budsky View Post
The 3.2L diesel does none of that- I have yet to see any trace of smoke or smell that awful diesel exhaust stink.
And if its anything like the 3.0L diesel in my ProMaster, there's also barely any trace of soot. The end of my exhaust pipe is still bare, clean metal after 9000 miles.

-- Zyzzyx --

-- ProMaster 3500 Diesel 159" HR Extended, metallic silver
-- Ordered 2/21/15, VIN 3/22/15, Built 5/21/15, Received 6/11/15
Zyzzyx is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-11-2016, 11:07:PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
It's all really moot for the soot...

If you buy either today, even if standards get tougher it won't affect what you already own.

I do have concern over modern diesels with all the emissions crap on them. But actually either engine has complex computer, sensor and induction systems. No engines are simple any more. My 84 Toyota Diesel is simple. It's the doomsday truck. The world can end and I can still get it running and driving when no else can..
brownbear is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 10:33:PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sydney
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
It looks like people are still going to be opting for diesel no matter how much less 'clean' it is, precisely because of the price and the effect that you get from it as fuel in the car. Hopefully with the advent of more powerful electric cars on the scene, we won't have to worry about the issue at all in due time!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
webbrowan is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-08-2016, 12:20:AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: columbia, tn
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
For the record, I love my VW golf TDI. I didn't buy it because it was "clean" but because of the gas mileage and zippiness (and that I owned a GTI in high school) The good news is that VW will buy it back from me with 60k on the odometer for a few thousand less than I paid for it (slightly used!)

Only bummer is, I have to get a different car. And It won't average 42 mpg at 80 mph on the interstate.

bmet - black wagon 148 MR. 3.7
bmet is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-08-2016, 07:42:AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: mississippi
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
i always got a kick out of DEF fluid, DEF fluid is made out of urea, urea is the urine in urine, so what do they make it out of? cow piss?

2016 transit cargo 250 MR, LWB, 3.5 eco, 3.31 limited slip
Michael Ophus is online now  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



  Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Received My Upfit "Rebate" Check Today...WOOT! TheLoxmyth Ford Transit General Discussion 18 12-28-2015 10:24:PM
Has anyone else caught wind of the "Commercial Van Season" incentives? Rico Ford Transit General Discussion 2 05-31-2015 08:14:PM
Hyundai "Euro Style" Van in Today's News Longboard Ford Transit General Discussion 5 03-19-2015 07:56:PM
Power Door & Step Company says "Hello from Socal" PowerDoorandStep Introductions 3 10-29-2014 06:59:PM
(VIDEO) People "test-driving" a robot Transit Rico Ford Transit General Discussion 2 06-27-2014 12:51:AM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off