Hi folks! Eyeballs deep in my wiring diagram and need some insight with my biggest draw being a 4.7 cuft Vitrifrigo AC/DC fridge and wanting to be off grid for ~4days even in bad weather:
I'm thinking of setting up 3 sources of power:
1. 3x 100W Solar > 45A Control > House Bank (still deciding between 1x 12V 210Ah AGM or 2x 6V 210Ah AGMs in a series)
2. 150A alternator > 1x Ford stock battery - FLA/70Ah > 1000W Inverter > House Bank
3. Shore Plug > Inverter/Charger > House Bank
Question: Can the Inverter in source 2. and the Inverter/Charger in source 3. be the same unit?? I'm not totally wrapping my head around this part, but my understanding is that if my van battery and house bank are different types then I need to use an Inverter in source 2. instead of just an ACR?
If there is already a thread on this I'd be grateful for a link! I've scoured this site and haven't found something so specific for my similar set up...
I'll add that we will be primarily boondocking and will likely never want to plug in at a campground unless we have to, but I figured, while I'm at it - I might as well wire up the option for shore power??
are you asking if you can run both the inverter and the charger in an inverter/charger at the same time? it is possible to run both at once if you buy an hybrid inverter/charger. but with regular inverter/chargers you can only run one at a time, either the inverter or the charger, Not both at the same time.
are you asking if you can run both the inverter and the charger in an inverter/charger at the same time? it is possible to run both at once if you buy an hybrid inverter/charger.
Yes, - well sort of. My hope is to eliminate the need to buy two separate units 1. for power coming off the alternator/van batts and 1. for power coming in from shore (which I know many people use a converter/charger for.) So if I have 1 inverter/charger - can I use it both to change AC shore to DC > Battery bank > DC Fuse Box and also to keep my house batts topped off while driving, but those functions wouldn't be needed simultaneously.
I've looked at Orton's diagram and what I'm basically asking is is it possible to only have 1 (hybrid?) inverter/charger (looking at a Magnum) in the whole electrical system? He has both an inverter and inverter/charger
I have the same application as you do with a 85 liter Vitrifrigo. I do have 2 to 3" of additional insulation on 5 sides of the refrigerator.
I have one 300 watt high voltage solar panel with a 15 amp MPPT solar controller. The battery is a 255 amp-hr 8D Lifeline AGM. I have no problem getting back to 100% SOC every day on clear or overcast days. I do have a vehicle powered pure sine inverter that can provide "shore power" with the engine running. That power can be used as a backup charging method. So far have not needed to use it in the last year. I do live in a mild climate. I also heat shower water and can heat air with the vehicle powered inverter. Also have powered 120 volt duplex outlets while I drive if vehicle powered inverter is on. Mt house inverter is a inverter/charger/transfer switch so 120 volt power transfer through the unit when it is available.
Your solar size and battery size are in the correct ballpark.
I also have a 15 amp shore power connection that I have only used when building the conversion.
Thanks Orton! Yes, your diagram has been very helpful! I'm stumped though on why someone couldn't have *just* the inverter/charger to accomplish the same thing your system does: vehicle powered "shore" and the house inverter/charger. I know I'm missing a key bit of electrical science magic here
The inverter charger cannot take 12 VDC from the van and charge your house battery. It needs a 120 VAC source to charge from.
To charge from the van you might want one of the smaller battery to battery chargers ($300). Or maybe just directly connect the house battery to the van's battery via an isolation relay ($100) or a battery switch ($25). Or just forget about charging from the van.
Woah - just looked at the price tag for a Hybrid Inverter/Charger - thinking that everyone's reasoning behind not having that be the only inverter in their system is the $$$$$
yep a hybrid is kind of a piece of specialized equipment: if you had a small gas generator (or only a 15 amp breaker shorepower source) and needed more total amperage then the generator (or shorepower) would put out. with a hybrid inverter you can run the generator and the inverter at the same time to increase your total AC amperage to run something like say an air conditioner.
hybrid inverters are also used to clean dirty AC electricity like you would have if you lived near an industrial area with lots of large electric motors switching off and on. (dirty ac shorepower runs the battery charger, the batteries filter out the dirty AC and the inverter produces clean AC.) http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/si...SH-M_series_datasheet_revC_#64-0497_web_0.pdf
but yeah, most people here use regular sinewave inverter/chargers and a battery to battery charger, or an ACR, in the camper conversions.
Are there advantages or disadvantages of using either a battery to battery charger, an ACR, or as Orton suggests; an inverter when going from our 150A alternator and 70Ah starter battery (flooded) to a ~200Ah 12V AGM house battery?
I've read here and there that going from battery to battery when they are different sizes/ages/types is a no no?
You can have only one inverter. You can have a battery selector switch that selects 12 volts from your vehicle or 12 volts from your house battery to provide 120 volt AC power. You would require a separate 120 volt AC to 12 volt DC charger. The house battery could be charged with either shore power or power from the inverter. A selector switch would be required to select which source of 120 volt power would be used for charging.
When an external source of AC power (i.e., utility power or generator) is connected and qualified on the inverter’s AC input, it operates in Standby mode. In Standby mode, the unit operates as a battery charger to convert the incoming AC power into DC power to recharge the batteries; and at the same time, automatically closes an internal AC transfer relay to pass the incoming AC power directly to the inverter’s output to continue powering the connected electrical appliances. Quoted from the Magnum Energy's website.
It's confusing to explain why you never try to combine AC power sources, it's better to just say "NEVER DO IT".
i guess you missed the ops original question, it had nothing to do with mixing AC power sources, that was just my confusion on what he was asking, so in effect you commented on what was my mistake. and you are wrong about mixing AC power sources, it is done every day! highend transfer switches sync generator or inverter power with utility power for loads that can not loose power even for a second like hospitals or computer server farms. there is also grid tied solar power: selling surplus power from your home solar electrical system to the utility. (you can watch your utility meter spin backwards!) although not connected to the utility grid, at work i have synchronized as many as 7 caterpillar diesel electric generator sets to supply power to the same bus.
no, in your case there is no advantage. If I had shore power I would not have any problem either. I have a Battery Tender for the van battery and my converter charger will take care of my house bats. both run off shore power. Solar may be in my future, I'm still researching systems.
The battery manufacturer's state that you should never connect two batteries together that are not the same size, type, brand and even the same manufacturing date. Every battery design has a specific charge profile for that battery design.
Using a relay to connect two different batteries together for charging is not recommended. Having said that, it is a fact that RV's have connected the two batteries together for years. Unfortunately I have not read any information that shows that battery life is extended if the battery is correctly charged vs a battery that has not been correctly charged. Makes sense to charge your house battery only with the correct charge profile. The question is how does that affect the life of the battery?
In my case using a ACR would probably work fine because my 300 watt solar panel with a 3 stage MPPT controller is the primary method used to charge the house battery. I seldom need any other source of charging than solar. Who cares what the charge profile is if you almost never need to charge from the vehicle?
My backup method of charging is 120 volt "shore power" from a 1000 watt vehicle powered inverter. When I do need to charge from the vehicle, I will still charge with a 3 stage charge that matches the battery requirements. The charging from the vehicle powered inverter can be manual or automatic. For manual I can start/stop the inverter with the remote pushbutton. For automatic operation every time the engine is started, I can turn on the # 1 "user defined" switch. That signal starts the inverter every time the engine runs.
My primary use of the vehicle powered inverter is to provide a simple inexpensive method of heating shower water. Or I also can heat the rear of the van with an electric air heater when the engine is running.
A selector switch is used to select either real shore power or "shore power" from the vehicle powered inverter. Only one or the other can be active at a time.
Both the vehicle powered inverter and the B to B charger are better than an ACR because both provide a 3 stage charge to your house battery.
The advantage of using a vehicle powered inverter is it is less expensive, does not interface into the vehicle electronics and the 120 volt power can be used for other uses instead of just for charging. It is a more useful solution IMO.
Both the vehicle powered inverter and the B to B charger are better than an ACR because both provide a 3 stage charge to your house battery.
The advantage of using a vehicle powered inverter is it is less expensive, does not interface into the vehicle electronics and the 120 volt power can be used for other uses instead of just for charging. It is a more useful solution IMO.
I'd argue "better than an ACR" only if you don't already have an adequate method of providing the 3 stage charge.
With solar and shore 3 stage solutions built into the design and readily, transparently operating as part of your usage model, IMO there is no real need for the additional complexity and cost of a b-b or inverter solution.
When my 1100 watt (cheapo) inverter went up in smoke, I replaced it with a 2000 pure sine. I also finally got around to adding a 150 watt solar panel.
The biggest consumer of power is my 120v fridge. With the new inverter, my load went up. I was thinking that the solar would run the fridge and the few odds and ends (thermostat controlled electric panel fan, ) The solar can't quite do it. I put a watt meter on the solar panel. In the 5 days it's been up, a few have been stormy but 2 were sunshine, the most I've added to the battery is 15.8 ah. I was expecting a bit more. I might shorten the lines from the solar panel to the charge controller, but the voltage is still over 19...
I'm installing a Xantrex Link Pro this weekend (if I ever get this Invisible Fence working). It's going to be interesting watching what's going on.
What kind of fridge? My understanding is that 120V only units are far more energy hungry than the 12V Danfoss models (like my Norcold de0061)
Our fridge seems to run at about 50% duty cycle, and draws about 5-6A when it's on. So we figure 3A * 24H = ~72AH/day load
With that said, I'm not too surprised that a single 150W panel won't keep up. We went with 560W of solar, on the design assumption that we'd average 10% of rated output... for maybe 6 hours/day. which would put us at maybe 30AH/day...only enough energy to handle ~half the fridge demand. But with our large battery bank, that would get us about 5 days without needing to drive off to recharge via the alternator.
I'm happy to report that so far, we are doing a lot better than that, and can actually run the fridge and keep the system charged. Right now, it looks likely that water & food, not electrics will be our limiting factor in how long we can stay put. But I don't think a 150W panel would cut it.
I average around 75ah a day with everything and I fire up the generator for about an hour and a half daily. If I'm with others and I hear their gensets fire up I light mine off. It seems to be the best no complaint strategy. I'm looking into Solar but every day I seem to learn something new that changes that strategy.
It works. I do not need to do anything more that to look at the SOC meter (sometimes I forget to look) each day to confirm everything is working as expected.. The battery system just takes care of itself without my need to do anything. If weather conditions prevent the solar from supplying enough power I sit in the driver seat and start the Transit engine to run the "shore power" generator (alternator). That may occur once or twice a year in my climate and with my electrical usage.
I could care less what amps are going in or out. I do care about the SOC. The SOC tells me what I can or can not do with the system.
Sounds like our loads are very much in the same ballpark.
For us, the fridge is the big draw. Not much else except some lights, occasional water pump use, music, etc. We decided to forgo installing the microwave, because it just took up so much room, for relatively low usage. Nothing we couldn't handle almost as conveniently on the stove. All the rest is pretty low power and low duty cycle stuff.
Your experience is identical to what I learned with my sold Sprinter build. The first panel was a 135 watt (I think 19 volt) Kyosera. It was as big a panel as I could purchase that could be shipped UPS. My primary load was a 80 liter Dometic front load refrigerator. The 135 watt panel with Morningstar 15 amp Sunsaver MPPT controller almost covered my electrical requirements. I had a 600 watt Xantrex pure sine inverter powered by the vehicle 12 volt system. My house battery was a single 255 amp-hr Lifeline 8D AGM. After about a year I replaced the 135 watt panel with a 205 watt panel. The larger panel easily provided enough power on clear days. The SOC was almost always at 100% around noon. Overnight the SOC consistently went down to 93-94% each morning. The Xantrex would heat my 5 gallon beer keg shower water in about 45 minutes while driving.
The 600 watt inverter was used a few times to supplement the power harvested from the 205 watt panel. Maybe 3-4 times each year. Had difficulties with the Xantrax overheating so could not charge at the full 50 amps which was the max. charging for my 1000 watt Magnum MMS1012 house inverter/charger/transfer switch. Part of the overheating problem was due to my lack of smarts. I had to open up the enclosure for more air flow and added a 120 volt computer fan powered by the second inverter outlet. When inverter ran the fan ran. Never got to find out if my fix worked because I sold the Sprinter.
So with that background, I tweaked the hardware choices for the Transit build:
1. Replaced the 600 watt Xantrex with a 1000 watt Samlex pure sine.
2. Discarded the beer keg and built 6 gallon 14 ga. SS shower water tank that is also the support pedestal for the portapotti. That space was wasted.
3. Replaced the 450 watt (6 gallon) shower water heating element with a 625 watt (10 gallon) heating element. Expect that to reduce water heating time down to about 30 minutes.
4. Bought a Transit gas engine so I did not have to drive to heat the water.
5. Mounted the Samlex behind the driver seat without any enclosure.
6. Replaced the 205 watt panel with the same physical size LG 300 watt 32 volt panel.
7. Revised the electrical so I can heat the shower water three ways. From shore power, from "shore power" from the vehicle powered inverter or from the house battery/inverter. If I pay attention to the weather forecast, there are good solar days that allow me to use up about 10% of the house battery capacity to heat shower water without running the engine.
8. Replaced the Dometic 80 liter refrigerator with a 85 liter Vitrifrigo. Both Danfoss compressors.
9. Added additional rigid insulation (2-3")around 4 sides of the refrigerator. The Dometic had a rear condenser coil bolted to the back of the refrigerator. Could not add insulation there. Vitrifrigo has a radiator/fan style condenser.
10. Changed the 600 watt microwave from a 600 watt (1140 actual) Proctor-Silex to a 600 watt (950 actual) Westinghouse.
The house battery, the Sunsaver and the 1000 watt Magnum stayed the same. The 4" square hole in the van floor for fresh air from under the van is the same. It is located directly behind the refrigerator. Air goes from floor and up and out the Maxxair roof vent.
So now what happens is the SOC only drops to 95-96% overnight. I think the reason for the improvement is a combination of more additional insulation (now 2-3") around 4 sides and 2" of closed cell foam on the back of the refrigerator. Did not expect much change but was surprised to see my overnight SOC to be higher with the new refrigerator. It now drops to 95% to 96% SOC overnight. I think it is the different style of condenser that is responsible but can not prove that.
So this is a long winded explanation that concurs with your experience. IMO you need at least a 200 watt panel high voltage panel and a MPPT controller.
O.K., I finally get it.. So we're saying that if while driving you run a 1000w crock pot off a 1500W inverter (would be needed) using a single battery, standard alternator Transit at the end of a the trip you'd find yourself in a stew over your dead battery.
??1000w crock pot??
Can you clarify lest some folks out there start worrying about using crock pots off inverters.
We are big fans of the crock when traveling. We just used our crock pot yesterday on a trip to a family reunion at a campsite.
We plugged it into my $179 Canadian Tire Offshore 1000w PSW inverter. By the time we got to the lake park 2 hours later, mamas meat balls were bubbling nicely. They were enjoyed through out the day by more than a dozen people.
On the low setting (the high setting cooks too fast) the Inverter indicated a 130w draw from the medium sized crock pot (rated at 200w.). I just can't imagine any crock pot draining the battery of a standing vehicle, far less a running vehicle.
We also had our Whynter freezer full of ice cream treats for the kids (of all ages). The van sat from 10am till 7 pm. Although I do have the double AGM+1 configuration, I would have done the same thing using my single Batery F 150 (with the crock pot) with no worries.
Solid ideas on the crock pots. It might be worth planning a cubby for storage of such an item, but I would begin to worry about having too many appliances. I already have a toaster oven (AC) and stove/oven (propane)
on a side note, for my system, the BB1230 was far more economical (less costly) than running dual inverters. Bay marine sells it shipped for $278 and being able to run 10 ga wire reduces the cost and complexity of the install dramatically. I used ancor marine wiring.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Ford Transit USA Forum
422.4K posts
43.8K members
Since 2012
A forum community dedicated to Ford Transit owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, troubleshooting, storage capacity, maintenance, and more!