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Insulating a cargo van???

34K views 46 replies 23 participants last post by  sportcoupe 
#1 ·
I've been doing much reading on insulating a cargo van and now somewhat bewildered.

Advice seems to be all over the landscape.

Some use adhesives and foam, others insist not to because of trapped moisture worries. Some people tout closed cell foam, others insist on materials that don't release fumes, etc.

I was surprised to learn the Van Specialties merely uses fiberglass insulation, same as what is used in homes.

One person insisted that the best thing to use is a product called EZ Cool.

http://www.lobucrod.com/index.html

For whatever reason it has particularly drawn my attention and would like to know if others on this forum are familiar with it and would they recommend it.
 
#4 ·
I did a bunch of searching on this same subject and come to find there are nearly as many solutions as there are guys doing it. There seems to be no "this is the right way' agreement. Many will say 3M thinsulate is great, but very little specs to back it up and it's kinda hard to buy and not cheap.

I ended up using combination of things in different places.

In most of higher side walls I used a first layer of reflectix then recycled denim batting to fill the large voids. I found that Ford is now using recycled denim insulation on some vehicles. I was concerned with heat in the upper spaces.

For the lower sidewalls I used a first layer of Noico sound deadening mat which is similar to Dynamat and EZ Cool mat, then the denim batting. I was more concerned with sound in the lower spaces.

For my roof I used a first layer of Noico then made a custom sandwich of 1/2" thick foil faced EPS insulation board with 2 layers of 3/16" bubble wrap in the middle to create a trapped air barrier.

I started with a cargo van so I had to make my own panels. I used 6mm thick expanded PVC sheet (Komatex brand) but also called Celtec etc. This material also has insulation properties.

I ordered the Noico mat from Amazon but the reflectix, foil faced EPA, and denim batting were purchased locally at a Lowe's store.

The expanded PVC sheet was ordered from a plastics supplier.
 
#11 · (Edited)
For my roof I used a first layer of Noico then made a custom sandwich of 1/2" thick foil faced EPS insulation board with 2 layers of 3/16" bubble wrap in the middle to create a trapped air barrier.

I ordered the Noico mat from Amazon but the reflectix, foil faced EPA, and denim batting were purchased locally at a Lowe's store.

I've been using Noico extensively as a first layer for everywhere I insulate (except the floor). Haven't encountered any others who say they have used it. Now that you've had it in place for a while what do you think of it? I realize you've used multiple products so maybe not so easy to tell what should get the credit.

When you read about insulating panels it is asserted that you only need to cover a quarter of the panel with sound deadening material like Noico but I've thrown that advice into the ash can and basically strive to cover every square inch. I go by the sound it makes when you tap on a covered panel and to my ears there is no mistaking the fact that full coverage produces noticeably more sound deadening. My doors, which are the only fully finished parts of the van (except roof over driver's area) sound so solid when you shut them it is gratifying beyond description.

When people ask me about what I'm doing on the van I always demo by rapping on the sliding door (as of now not insulated), then the front fender, then finally the door. Their eyes go wide when they hear the difference. Not sure what this will all translate to as I'm driving and my wife and I are listening to audio books etc. but for now happy as a clam.
 
#6 · (Edited)
We sell 3M Thinsulate(TM) which is engineered for vehicles and used by OEMs like Honda, Tesla, GM and others. It is manufactured by the 3M automotive division.

More and more DIY and professional up-fitters are choosing Thinsulate(TM) because it is easy to install, provides awesome results and has great brand recognition.

Thinsulate(TM) is clearly the best practice for insulating a van and is quickly emerging as the industry standard. Having Thinsulate(TM) in your van will raise it's resell value because your buyer will recognize that you used the most appropriate materials.

Please email, pm or call for more information and to request a sample.

All the best,
Hein
Impact, Inc.
Hood River, OR
54l-49O 5O98
heinvs@impact3d.com
impactproducts | eBay
 
#10 ·
It is true that engineered materials cost more. Using Thinsulate(TM) eliminates the need for other resonance and noise reduction products in addition to providing the thermal insulating component. This can reduce total insulating costs.

Thinsulate(TM) passes all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety standards, easy to install, will not harm your vehicle, it does not off-gas or smell so overall a pretty efficient and appropriate solution.
 
#36 ·
It is true that engineered materials cost more. Using Thinsulate(TM) eliminates the need for other resonance and noise reduction products in addition to providing the thermal insulating component. This can reduce total insulating costs.

Thinsulate(TM) passes all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety standards, easy to install, will not harm your vehicle, it does not off-gas or smell so overall a pretty efficient and appropriate solution.
:(

I dont know how you define "need" but because of physics - if you add a layer of Reflectix in addition to a layer of Thinsulate.... it will, for sure, block noise significantly better than Thisulate alone.

Hein you sure are selling the stuff with your posts here. :(
 
#13 · (Edited)
I apologize if the flavor of my earlier posts in this thread were too promotional. Babybuffy is certainly approaching noise reduction with proven methods and materials and the results will be excellent. I am familiar with Noico products. As engineer for CASE, I designed noise reduction solutions for construction equipment. No easy task that involved all sorts of layers of different densities and compositions. The acoustic properties of noise absorption materials are often quantified as the absorption coefficient relative to frequency. This a great way to compare materials. Below is a graph showing this specification for the different grades of automotive grade Thinsulate(TM). For SM600L, the absorption coefficient varies from .55 to .95 over the frequency range 500 to 5000Hz.



As BabyBuffy mentions, a common way to demonstrate panel resonance reduction is by rapping on the panels from the outside. Our customers are not always convinced Thinsulate(TM) will reduce resonance. The following youtube video shows this test on our Transit:



All the best,
Hein
Impact, Inc.
54l 49O 5O98
 
#14 ·
Hein,

No need for you to apologize for anything I've seen. New people come here all the time and your input should be a great benefit to anyone doing research.

Just to clarify, I use Noico extensively as the first layer before using Thinsulate. I will eventually have the perfect opportunity to make another judgement on the matter. Most of my roof is now layered with Noico. In the meantime I've been working on installing the floor. My van sits in the weather and when it rains I hear it. Anxious to find out when the time comes what the rain will sound like with the Thinsulate layer in place.
 
#15 ·
While I did put a layer of prodex between the ribbing of the van, for noise lessening only... and I'm pretty happy with the quietness of the cargo area (except for the roof when raining... only rained once and I'm going to add there).... I'm really not a good judge since I'm hard of hearing for high pitch sounds, and I have driven convertibles for 25 years of my life :D hahahahaha talk about wind noise! :D
 
#21 ·
thinsulate is spendy and not a great thermal insulator for its thickness
but for noise insulation, I have to say it works Great -

after installing Thinsulate and glueing in place the noise difference
in my van is like night and day -

Thinsulate has been worth every penny as sound insulation -

Hmm, how much would you charge to install it? :)


I know Kim (Hein's wife) and his daughter got their van done in a day. My issue is I move slow! Pure mechanical things I can do fast, but when I have to stop and think it just takes me longer. I'm still impressed that I got my roof vent in as "fast set adhesive" and slowly moving didn't help, but I cheated in doing as much as I could from the inside! (hint, you can lift up the vent adapter on a diagonal through a 14" square hole, but best to have a helper).
 
#22 ·
Hey Tom

the way installed the thinsulate was to use Gliden Gripper -
worked Excellent -

using gripper to install gives you time to work and thinsulate can be
repositioned easily - takes the Hassel out of installing thinsulate-
I only used 3M #90 above the cab because it worked better in that location-

everywhere else I used Gripper - Much Easier and Much Better
Trying to install thinsulate in walls using 3M # 90 is a pain in as -s
not the best way at all
- I will share another trick on installing when we talk
 
#23 · (Edited)
The magic of Thinsulate is in the fibers. They are each different lengths and diameters and this prevents harmonic oscillation in a variety of spectrums, from sound to IR. The really amazing thing about this is how it can achieve a tremendous amount of effect in a very small cross section, as anyone who has worn a Thinsulate garment in the cold can attest to.

When comparing the various thicknesses of the product it became clear to me how Thinsulate does most of this work in a small space. That is, the thicker the product is, the less acoustic and thermal damping it provides per inch. A 0.4 inch thick piece of CS150 is rated at R-1.7, and the 1.75 inch SM600 is R-5.2. SM600 is 4.35 times as thick, but only has 3 times the insulation value of CS150 Thinsulate.

This is information that supports how using a thin layer of Thinsulate in concert with another high R-value material, such as R-Max polyiso sheet, will achieve an excellent acoustic and thermal damping sandwich that is more effective and costs less than just going with a layer or layers of the thicker varieties of Thinsulate.

Another advantage of using garment grade Thinsulate CS150 is how there are multiple online retail sources for the product (Vogue Fabrics is one) and competition exists which affects the pricing in a good way for the buyer. The SM flavors of automotive Thinsulate product are only available retail from a single vendor and the price is less affected by competitive pricing.

These are all factors that can be considered when coming up with an insulation plan in order to get the best overall effect and value from your efforts.
 
#24 · (Edited)
We stock Thinsulate(TM) TAI1547 which is 8mm (5/16") thick automotive grade equivalent to CS150.
The garment grades likely do not have the same acoustic performance as the automotive grades. (no need for that in clothing)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142706490097

We will match any price for CS150. Please call Kim 54l 49O 4292
Thing is, nobody uses it because it simply isn't enough thickness.

SM600L and SM400L are preferred by both professional and DIY van up-fitters.
Based on the performance and feedback from customers, our feeling is that the R-values are actually higher than those published by 3M.

All the best,
Hein
 
#25 · (Edited)
The garment grades likely do not have the same acoustic performance as the automotive grades. (no need for that in clothing)
Please provide data to substantiate this claim. We've been down this road before regarding Thinsulate, insulation techniques (Are you still suggesting to your customers that they get enough product to stuff the channels?), and acoustics, and you consistently avoid backing up your statements with data.

On the other hand, here's A LINK to data regarding the results gained in acoustic damping on my install, and another with the final readings in THIS POST. This showed a remarkable reduction in acoustic noise in the van with application of CS150. You posted in that thread, so, were aware of the fact that CS150 can have a significant effect on acoustics, yet now make the misleading statement above.

You participated in that thread and others where your claims have been challenged regarding the superiority of the automotive product you market (holding a monopoly on retail sale) over performance of the garment grade product. There is no data that has been presented to indicate these are not based on exactly the same technology. They share the "Thinsulate" name for a reason. With the caveat that the automotive grade has been subjected to fire testing, which you brought up. My answer was that the fact the garment grade isn't tested to the automotive standard (which is required by federal law, and, cost of certification will be rolled into the price) is no proof that the garment grade would not pass the same test.

Everything I've seen indicates that the Automotive and Garment versions of Thinsulate are based on the same product and the 3M data indicates their performance is the same for equal thickness product. You have in the past indicated how you would contact your rep at 3M regarding some of the unanswered questions. Have you ever received a response from them?

Hein, you seem like a nice enough guy, still, I'll call BS on any person who makes claims like this that need further support in order to be credible. Particularly when I've documented my experience based upon measured results that go a long ways toward refuting the claim you make.
 
#28 ·
I bought on of those infrared thermometers on PrimeDay. I have a mid roof blue jeans van. Not trying to "super" insulate it so did not do sides but put the thicker Thinsulate acquired from Hein on the roof and stuffed it in the ribs. I have been very please with the sound deadening effect and the insulation properties. Just a few observations.
Dallas TX. 108 degrees outside temp. Van sitting in the sun all day. Euro style vents in both front windows. Strawfoot insulated covers on all window except windshield. Windshield has Heatshield cover. All glass has a UV & IR film applied. Maxxair fan open w/exhaust fan running. Fan thermostat set to come on at 95 degrees. Three thermometers in van. One suspended from rear rib about 24" above floor read 115 degrees. one suspended mid van about 24" from roof read 118 degrees. One laying in center console read 116 degrees.
IR thermometer reading on outside skin-161 degrees. IR reading on inside rib (middle van) was 157 degree. This rib was stuffed w/Thinsulate but nothing to break the connection to the outside skin. IR reading on Thinsulate 3-4" from inside rib was 121 degrees. IR temp on insulated covers was 121 degrees. IR floor temp was 121 degrees. IR temp on factory installed cargo liners was also 121 degrees. My conclusions are:
1. Maxxair fan does a find job of removing heat. Worthwhile addition.
2. Thinsulate performs better than my expectations. Great insulator and sound reducer. The difference between the rib temp and the scrum temp on the
Thinsulate really got my attention. 36 degree difference is not bad.
3. Blue Jeans van parked in the sun on a 100+ degree day is a great place to get bread dough to rise. Not so much for sustaining life.
 
#29 · (Edited)
IR reading on inside rib (middle van) was 157 degree. This rib was stuffed w/Thinsulate but nothing to break the connection to the outside skin. IR reading on Thinsulate 3-4" from inside rib was 121 degrees.

Additional supporting feedback on the futility of stuffing the channels. Placing something between the metal and the cabin space to prevent heat transfer to the cabin air is most effective.

Thinsulate is really amazing stuff, regardless of which flavor. They all do a superb job of reducing the transfer of heat and sound.

Those are some intense temps you are seeing in the van. Have you considered a white vinyl wrap for the top of the Blue Jean van?
 
#30 ·
No need to argue about Thinsulate in its various iterations. I just used Aerocel closed cell foam, polyiso, Reflectix and clothing Thinsulate. Whatever you do the metal box is difficult to fully insulate with exposed metal surfaces and glass. Either air movement or external heat source is required.

For winter I do not try to heat the van. Just heat the body with a 12 volt heating pad. For summer just have floor vent and a Maxxair to move the air.

Best thing to use is the van wheels to move van to a more favorable environment away from excessive heat or cold.
 
#31 ·
Looked into it at one place close to home but their feedback was it would not last very long. Have not got around to looking at other vendors. Their input was it would last maybe two years. Not a daily transportation so I haven't been too persistent. For our needs the Thinsulate has proved adequate. We stop and picnic inside the van and I plug a fan into the 110 outlet between the front seats and blow the AC up and towards the back of the van. Nice cool circulation and works fine. Have thought about putting something like cork on the ribs but i use the cutouts to hook bungee cords and whatnot in. All in all, when traveling, the window film, Thinsulate, and Maxxair fan have made such a difference that I just haven't tackled anything else. Forgot, also a curtain behind seats to help keep more AC up front when traveling.
 
#35 ·
I punted on my scheme to use cork on the ribs and apply paneling directly over that. Not enough tolerance in the scheme and the ribs aren't always the in the same plane.



I went to 3/4" furring with sheet metal screws and took advantage of the depth to add 1/2" of R-Max polyiso rigid foam insulation board between the furring, so as to have a minimum 1/4" air gap between the reflective aluminum facing and the Thinsulate. I want the foam to be vapor permeable, so I ran a "dough docker" over the aluminum facing on both sides. Didn't know the term for the tool when I found it at the thrift store and thought "Ah-ha!"



Will be paneling with 5' x 5' x 1/8" Baltic birch plywood. Again, to maintain vapor permeability, will finish with half & half tung oil / pine solvent from Real Milk Paint Co, instead of polyurethane. Tung oil is slow to cure, but I've got building a house electrical system keep me occupied between coats.
 

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#38 ·
I did notice a nice difference in just adding the 600L Thinsulate to the roof. Ribs aren't covered.


My wife had a great idea of trimming back the insulation from the skirm (spelling?) and gluing the skirm over that portion, then gluing the pad to the ceiling. You can still feel the heat radiating from ribs, but has helped with keeping it a little more comfortable inside the cargo van.


I pulled out my cargo panels, insulated with just the Thinsulate behind them. I had planned on using the pink sealed foam, but it squeaked! Nothing like the sounds of a 1000 rats behind you. One small section, so it was removed and replaced.


With the CNC machine, I can carve "waves" onto the pink foam to help with acoustic reflection. So may need to revisit that one. Might still do small sections, with fabric over it. I have audio issues; some sounds can drive me crazy but not noticed by anyone else (hence the pink foam 'rat' squeak).



I need to try the real paint. Next road trip will have unfinished cabinet work. The layout is more of a quick and dirty to get an idea of what works, what doesn't work. Soon discovered my plan of a 25" wide bed sucked. It only works if you have space on both sides of my shoulders/arms. So I recut the lid top to overhang giving me 31" width. Next step might be a raising/lowering queen sized (60" x 80" bed) at this rate. Hence why I like multiple builds to find what works for me.
 
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#39 ·
I had planned on using the pink sealed foam, but it squeaked! Nothing like the sounds of a 1000 rats behind you.

That's why I went to the polyisocyanate R-Max. I tested the varieties of insulation at Home Depot with a block of wood and scrap of painted metal. The polystyrenes (blue Dow, pink Corning, and white bead) squeaked; the polyiso didn't. But I didn't want the foam to be impermeable to water vapor. The dough docker solved that problem. I also squeezed construction adhesive / sealant in the gaps between furring and edge of foam as much as possible in hopes of buffering what squeaks may come.
 
#42 ·
Yeah, the ULTIMATE would be to totally cover the interior with Dynamat type material and then use thinsulate, and then offset from the walls and ceiling thinsulate by 2" and use reflectex and cover all that with 2 layers of 5/8" sheetrock with a 1/4" rubber mat between them. Then cover the inside walls with auralex.

But I think that using a judicious amount of Dynamat type material on the large sheet metal panels to dampen their vibration, and then thinsulate, would be more than enough for most people. I think it's a matter how how good is good enough.
 
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